Apple buying and misc apple advice.

[Shumba]

Apples!
So more questions! Iv not done apples before!
I’m considering amongst everything else in the garden, Ellison’s Orange and Winston (Winter King) as well as 2 crab-apples 'John Downie' and ‘Butterball’.

Ellison’s Orange I have chosen due to being ‘hardy’ and Winston for being a good storage apple. And both for the fact there good for eating off the tree – also I hear they make good numbers.

They are both in the same pollination group however Ellison’s are apparently sep-oct trees and Winston oct-april. So does this mean there not going to be good pollination partners?

I know nothing of the crab apples other than they are October trees, just handy as on the same site kind of thing (victoriananursery.co.uk). Please let me know if that’s sites any good or not btw lol!

Ill be keeping the trees low (250cm) as well if I can, tho the lucky one in the far corner can get a bit more height. See green area in my garden plan here. (large image) http://i.imgur.com/D2nwtkw.jpg Its 360 degrees so the oak tree B is about north and A marks south-ish. Located in Derby UK, with clay soil.

Any advice on these is welcomed, especially spacing, how long before first crop and when the best time to buy and plant is.

[CaraFlower]

From what you've said Ellisons fruits in september (keeping until October), Winston fruits October, and will store for up to 6 months (if you give them correct storage conditions). It doesn't matter if the trees fruit at different times, so long as they flower at similar times. Some will take longer than others to get from flower to fruit. If they're in the same pollination group they should be fine.

If you are keeping them small then have a read about different rootstocks - these are what control the size. It is easier to keep a tree smaller if they aren't on a vigourous rootstock, nothing worse than having to hack back beautiful trees because they are too big for the space. There are downsides to dwarfing rootstocks as well - they're less able to cope with stress for example.

You can also get trained (or train yourself) such as espalier and cordons which can be very productive in a small space (and look amazing), but they do need upkeep. If I could start again I would probably have a series of cordons and maybe stepovers to provide lots of different apple and pear varieties successionally whilst being a nice border. As it is I have a hometrained 3 tier espalier cox to cram in somewhere (no fruit this year so must hate its pot!) and a small Scrumptious that has elegantly festooned itself. Planning is key to avoiding these dilemmas (the trees arrived several years before my allotment!)

You'll get more choice choosing bare root trees in winter, but can get pot grown trees now. Personally I'd wait to avoid having to water them this summer. Cropping time will depend on rootstock and age when you buy. Spacing - again depends on rootstock and how much pruning/training you want to do. How much space do you have?

[Shumba]

Thanks!

So you’re saying I should wait till winter?

All the trees according to the website, are M26 root stock and says 1.8-2.4m is a reasonable height to maintain. “Supplied as a containerised tree pruned to approximately 3 - 4 feet (90 - 120 cm) tall including pot.”

Plot is about 8 meters by.. 3-4+ (guessing) was hoping to fit 4 trees in. The plot is reasonably close to an oak tree however. The size can be more or less but the 8 meter part is fixed.
I like the idea of training them but I do like the natural look, perhaps I could attempt something a bit half and half

[chrisdb]

Thanks!

So you’re saying I should wait till winter?

All the trees according to the website, are M26 root stock and says 1.8-2.4m is a reasonable height to maintain. “Supplied as a containerised tree pruned to approximately 3 - 4 feet (90 - 120 cm) tall including pot.”

Plot is about 8 meters by.. 3-4+ (guessing) was hoping to fit 4 trees in. The plot is reasonably close to an oak tree however. The size can be more or less but the 8 meter part is fixed.
I like the idea of training them but I do like the natural look, perhaps I could attempt something a bit half and half

On M26, 4 in 8m sounds a bit ambitious to me. You'll only have a couple of metres between them, so the canopies will be touching when they're mature. If you want to fit them into that space permanently you'll probably need to train them into restricted forms like cordons or espaliers.

You might be able to get 3 free-standing trees in there by zigzagging them, since you have 4m of width.

Otherwise you probably need to go smaller, e.g M9 or M27.

[FB.]

In my experience, Ellison's is very prone to canker, wasps and codling maggots.

Winston is nowhere near as disease resistant as 'the books' say.

I've grown both but unless regularly sprayed to keep them disease-free I wouldn't bother with them again.

Both are supposed to be Cox offspring, so they may not be good pollinators for each other. However, both seem reasonably self-fertile.

[Guest]

Where abouts are you? apple days will be about sept/oct so you can get a better idea. Also are there any groups or oganisations you can tap into locally. I have learnt what people are growing via village shows and sending out requests via an e-mail/ local tweet type thing which threw up several starting points. Once you start asking it is surprising where it leads.

Edit: Farm shops and farmers markets. You get to try them and if you ask about the trees and issues peeps if they can't answer will usually point you in a helpful direction.

[Shumba]

Humm apples are complicated..
Well my garden is a bug haven, so I guess I might pass on the Ellison and look for a smaller rootstock since it’s a tight fit for 4.

I’d really like apples that are a little bit more bomb proof to bugs and disease.
So any other suggestions? They must be eating apples, good for storing and preferably full of lots of big and juicy apples!
Not forgetting I’m also after 2 crab-apples for jam, jelly and all the rest as well!

I’m very open to suggestion, also where to buy in UK since the store I was looking at only have larger root stock.

[Shumba]

Where abouts are you?

Derby :3
Never heard of an apple day, Ill keep my eyes open tho!

*edit failed*

[Guest]

Bit of a trek:-
Apple Day | National Trust
Cromford Apple Day - Celebrating Cromford - Events in the village of Cromford through the year

They don't seem to do an apple day any more but might be worth a visit The Physic Garden at Calke Abbey | National Trust

[FB.]

Never heard of an apple day, Ill keep my eyes open tho!

Also see if you can find some local community orchards to see what's doing well in your area.
Nothing beats local experience because there is a lot of variation of soil and climate between UK regions, and different varieties/rootstocks can give different results in different parts of the UK.

[Alison]

Not forgetting I’m also after 2 crab-apples for jam, jelly and all the rest as well!

I forage all my crab apples from all over the place, all sorts of trees I'd never noticed until I really looked. Check out this autumn and you may well find you don't need to grow them yourself

[Guest]

Might be worth contacting these peeps for advice, events, local orchards which you might be able to visit as they come up on the orchard network (The Sherwood Forest Trust | Orchard Network)

Contact Us - The Sherwood Forest Trust Nottinghamshire

[Shumba]

Been playing about in the garden some with a tape measure, im seeing online that M26 needs 3m spacing that matches up to what has been said. So I’m thinking I ‘can’ squeeze 4 in the space… it was only approximate. Walls on the top and right side of grid.

I may have to trim a branch off next doors oak to let light in but I don’t think that’s much of an issue. The bigger issue might be oaks roots on tree 4. But I think I will be ok with M26 if I’m careful with and train it a little.
Thanks for all the links I’m gona have a good dig around and read up tonight!

[CaraFlower]

Personally I would probably have no more than 1 crab apple. Although they can be very beautiful and good for pollination purposes. I've had success using the small windfall apples from an established eating tree for jellys, they set up brilliantly.

[FB.]

......im seeing online that M26 needs 3m spacing that matches up to what has been said.....

Within the root zone of another tree, growth rate can be much less or even brought to a halt. Slower-growing rootstocks are not very competitive with other plants or grass.

I haven't seen many M26 reach 3m height/spread except commercially/professionally; I plant MM111 or M25 at about 3m because most things only grow slowly in my soil due to the growing conditions, grass cover and no spraying.