Newbie needs advice on fruit trees and garden

[dewder]

Hello,

I'm new here and in the garden and had a couple of questions if anyone has a moment spare.

I've done a decent job in the past at keeping house plants alive and have recently started fix up a long overdue garden. I have a spare space in the garden and was hoping I could get a few fruit trees in that spot.

My garden is east facing with the plot having a fence along its south side and one close to it's easy side (I think).


The spot is around 8ft by 3.5ft. I'm not sure how to know how good the soil is but it's soft and there's likely some rubble a feet or so down like the rest of the garden was. It doesn't get waterlogged and the grass grows vigorously there. I'm in the North West so winter temps get to around 5c min normally. I have no green house and want to plant them in the ground so won't be moving them over winter.

So, with the background out of the way, my questions were...

Is that an okay spot for some small fruit trees? I'll keep them well pruned, and don't really need them to produce lots of fruit.

What would be the best thing to do with the soil to give them a good start?

Some of the fruits I was confusing were Fiesta Apple, conference pear, Eureka lemon and perhaps, if space etc permits peach, lime and mandarin. I believe they are all self pollinating.

Phew, long post. Hopefully you haven't fell asleep. I'll probably have more questions but they'll do for now

Thanks!

[Guest]

Hi and welcome to the vine

Where abouts in the world are you?

My garden is east facing with the plot having a fence along its south side and one close to it's easy side (I think).

Are you intending to train the trees along the fence?

The spot is around 8ft by 3.5ft.

Are these measurements right? That is ok for a (one tree) fan or espalier or 2-3 cordons. IMO If the grass is vigorous and lush you need to step up your rootstocks (semi dwarf rather than dwarf) to contend with water (mm109 for apples is also not a good choice if I remember rightly)

Some of the fruits I was confusing were Fiesta Apple, conference pear, Eureka lemon and perhaps, if space etc permits peach, lime and mandarin. I believe they are all self pollinating.
Thanks!

apple and pear no problem, but even self pollinating will benefit from a pollinating partner. If training any choice should be spur bearing.
peach is fine but will likely need to be hand pollinated, flowers and fruitlets protected from frost and also protected from leaf curl.
lemon, lime and mandarin. If you are in the uk these are pot plants that you play hokey cokey with.

[nickdub]

Hi,
No problem to grow some fruit, but given you have only a small space available it obviously means only a limited amount.

If you want variety I'd suggest some soft fruit like raspberries, loganberries, gooseberries etc with perhaps a vine trained on the fence.

If you decide on a tree, probably best to get either an apple or a plum, but make sure you get it on a really dwarf rootstock - you can't make a good big tree into a good small one, by keeping on pruning large chunks out of it.

In the end it comes down to personal choice as to what you like to eat and the look you prefer - you could compromise by getting a one year old tree and planting soft fruit around it - the tree will take 4 or 5 years before it gets big and starts to shade out the smaller stuff.

I wouldn't recommend starting with hot weather fruit such as lemons which you mentioned BTW - keep them in mind for when you get a greenhouse or retire to Spain :-)

As usual in gardening cultivating the soil is where to start, I'd suggest digging in the grass and sowing a green manure crop such as field beans over winter as a starter in preparing your plot.

Good luck, Nick

[Kirk]

Apples will be OK, pears will be but they can take some time to produce fruit.
Not a lemon as one deeper frost and it is dead - know this from experience.
Peach will really need a sunny sheltered position, also find one that is a bit more suited to the UK climate.
Lime, no, they will not survive they are tropical as in Malaya etc they like 80 degrees and 100% humidity.
Mandarins are in the same a Lemon, if they get cold they die. The big houses had Orangeries for these. They were inside until May then moved out until Sept.

Alternatives: Apples as said, plums, cherries will do OK but the birds eat every one of them.
Soft fruit: Currants, gooseberries, raspberries OK but they will spread.

At 8x3.5 I would put 2 apples and a plum down the long side and alternate currant/goosberry in front, say 3 currant and 2 gooseberry (5).

You can get sort of "specialist" type trees for smaller spaces - thinkin the Ken Muir Minarette trees. Basically a stick with short branches costs more but you could likely fit 5 down the long dimension not 3.
Apples get M26 or M9 rootstock.

[dewder]

Thanks guys.

I'm located in Manchester, not the sunniest but could be worse I suppose. Those sizes are an estimate, but it's at least that size.

I had a feeling citrus wasn't going to work. Though I do like the thought of a lemon and lime tree, if I was to have them in pots could I move them to the shed during winter as we don't have much space in the house? I could install a couple of tube heaters in there too I suppose. I have considered a smallish greenhouse, is a greenhouse enough to keep citrus warm over winter?

Least Apple and Pear will work, I will certainly look for those stocks mentioned. I could train them along the fence, hadn't thought about that, would save space I suppose. Though I like the idea of more smaller cordons. Are cordoned trees easy to keep? I could have pollinating partners then I suppose.

I hadn't thought about plum either, good idea I have read Fiesta Apple and Conference Pear are the easiest to grow whilst still tasting good. And Perigrine(?) Peach being hardy and easy to grow. Do those sound like good choices?

Sadly I'm not a fan of raspberries and the like. With the exception of strawberries ofc, so that's a possibility.

Could you elaborate on how you suggest preparing the ground please Nick? Being super new to outdoor gardening your comment both intrigues and eludes me.

Sorry for formatting, I'm on my phone on the way home from work. And thanks for the welcome

[dewder]

Sorry, another question...

I have just had a look at root stocks (didn't know much about them) and https://www.orangepippintrees.co.uk/...ock-tree-sizes says the smallest stock is M27. Though I don't think anyone recommended that, is there a reason to not go for the smallest?

I didn't realise these trees had to be placed so far apart :s

[Lardman]

Sorry, another question...
... the smallest stock is M27. Though I don't think anyone recommended that, is there a reason to not go for the smallest?

M27 can be fine - if you don't mind constantly looking after the tree. Staking, feeding, watering - running out with hot water bottles and rubbing vicks into it's chest when it gets a cold.

Trees are dwarfed by putting them on wimpy rootstocks, if your garden soil is average to good you may be fine (personally Id go with M26 though). It's a lot easier to restrict a trees vigour than to increase it. Don't forget the height and spread figures given are for fully mature trees grown in ideal conditions. If your soil is poor you'll struggle with M27 , I struggle here even with MM106; after 4 years I have some trees less than 3ft tall, whilst the ones I pamper on M26 are 3 times that size.

[nickdub]

No problem - on the plants, if you want to try a peach and a lemon I'd definitely start them in pots - the lemon will need protection by being inside in cold Winter weather, and the peach, though it can stand out OK in the cold, will be better being inside in the Spring to keep it dry and probably the Autumn if it has fruits on it.

As for preparing the soil there are two possible ways forward with any weeds/grass that you currently have. :-
1) digging - ie turn the soil over with a spade and bury the top layer so the chunk of soil you lift up is turned upside down. (If you spot any permanent weed roots like bindweed put then in a container to one side). Then at this time of year once the digging is done you can sow some seeds to over winter as plants. Field beans are good for this as they help take up nutrients from the soil, fix nitrogen from the air and bind the soil with their roots - you can get a small packet from Ebay to try quite cheaply.

Then in the Spring you cut the tops off the beans and compost them, while digging the soil over again ready for planting.
2) no-digging option - cover the soil now with old carpet or layers of cardboard to shade out the light and so getting the weeds/grass to rot off with the aim of planting up next year.

Generally speaking the less competition the plants you want to grow have from other things growing in the same ground the better they will do.
Start a compost heap with any grass mowing and vegetable waste you can get - nature is a natural recycling system, but if you help by speeding it up and concentrate the effort then your plants will benefit.

[Scarlet]

If it was me...I'd be planting some bare root trees during winter. Dig over and weed your ground and get the trees in rather than wait a year. Green manures for me are just for growing in a veg bed that has become vacant.

[Guest]

I was led to believe fruit trees shouldn't be overfed (given very fertile soil) as the whole point is to get fruit which is part of the reproductive cycle not growth which is what feeding should encourage

Again depending on the type of gardener you are it will reflect on your rootstock choice. If you are a nurture, feed, perfect, improve, pamper gardener than go for a dwarf rootstock.

If you are a bung it in, hack it back, weed occasionally than beef it up to a semi dwarfing.

No guesses for which one I am

[nickdub]

Quite agree with you on overfeeding - if you are planting in an old nursery garden or similar then nothing extra is needed, but most people's house gardens are a mixture of weeds and builders left behind rubble, as such fertility is an issue particularly for young trees which don't compete like old ones with extensive root systems do.

[nickdub]

If it was me...I'd be planting some bare root trees during winter. Dig over and weed your ground and get the trees in rather than wait a year. Green manures for me are just for growing in a veg bed that has become vacant.

Agree with you about planting bare root trees in the Winter being best - I by no means meant to imply that green manure was a substitute and so waiting another year was the right thing to do - both should be planned for, with the green manure going in asap and any trees/bushes subsequently planted when weather permits.

[Scarlet]

both should be planned for, with the green manure going in asap and any trees/bushes subsequently planted when weather permits.

Why plant green manures at all? I think this is over complicating things overwintering manures are used to stop soil erosion. Suppress weeds. They need to be dug in during spring and usually left to rot down for a month before planting up your veg beds. I've never heard of the use of green manures before planting trees. Sowing now has little benefit if the trees are planted at the correct time....potted trees are usually starting to be delivered from September onwards with bare roots starting December for most online tree companies (Im in the process of ordering a couple for myself to plant over Winter)

If the grass is growing vigorously in that area at the moment the trees should have a reasonable start.

[nickdub]

Each to his own - I'd just say that one or two small one year old fruit trees and rest left as empty ground strikes me as a wasted opportunity. We are now just starting September, plenty of time to sow some seeds and get a green manure crop in and growing.

Later when its to plant the trees holes can be dug etc. Either the green manure can be left around them for a while or it can all be dug in depending.

The one thing you can't get back is wasted time and if the ground is left bare then all that will do is encourage weeds. As I noted before another approach requiring less work would be not to dig and manure, but to cover the ground for now with cardboard or similar. I would use one or other of these approaches depending on the state of the soil, time available etc.

[dewder]

Thanks guys. I did notice the tree shops deliver over winter, which I thought was odd but works for me seeing as we're nearly there.

I'm the nurture type for sure, but not the type with a lot of time to do so, so I'll get the M9 stock I think. Orange pippin sells bare root M9 cordons and quince A pear cordons so I'll probably get those?

Seeing as I'll likely get them delivered over winter I'll probably do the cover with carpet thing then get them straight in. The soil there has been turned over a few times in the last couple of years I think.

Cheers.