Cuttings from thornless gooseberries have thorns

[digon]

I have a thornless gooseberry that I've taken about thirty cuttings from.
The cuttings are now about 500mm high although still quite gangly but they all have quite vicious looking thorns unlike the parent plant.
Does anyone know why they're different to the parent and how do I propogate the thornless plant without the thorns coming back?

TIA

[Jay22]

I've had the same thing with raspberries. Had a few shoots in the pot next to my raspberry plants which I repotted...turned out to be raspberries with thorns but original plant had none. Looked on internet but no information other than it could be a seed dropped by a bird, but that's a heck of a coincidence and yours are cuttings. Would be interested if anyone has an answer for this.

[digon]

This is the second lot of cuttings I have had from this plant. The first lot of 20 or so I grew last year also had thorns so I binned them thinking I must have mistakenly took the cuttings from one of my thorned varieties.
I was then very careful taking the second batch of cuttings to make sure they came from the thornless plant but the outcome was the same.

[lottie dolly]

I to looked on the net,apparently your not alone,and some suggestion off layering,there has to be a way for breeders to create new stock,

[swaine]

Only thing I can think of natural mutation , or the plant trying to go back to a more primitively form for protection hence the thorns, apple trees throw off mutations

I've had it quite a lot, very interesting,
From a thornless boysenberry , I now have a semi thorny and very thorny plants from tip rooting !!! The original plant stays thornless
Recently I've had a thorny version of the Adrienne blackberry appear from tip rooting from a thornless parent
I just retag the thornless Adrienne, dont get rid of them as they are a interesting variant of the original , sell them on eBay or give them away

[Thelma Sanders]

had a thornless tayberry that got strimmed to the ground by an over zealous 'helper' - that grew back with thorns. Thornless types are mutations, so I think reversion is the answer.

[fishpond]

I must say this is not something I have come across.
If thorny ones are the result of cuttings/layering, how do specialist nurseries do it?

[digon]

I must say this is not something I have come across.
If thorny ones are the result of cuttings/layering, how do specialist nurseries do it?

I was thinking of trying to divide the plant at the roots next to see if I can propogate thornless ones that way but I would expect it would be a much slower way than taking cuttings and also puts the donor plant at risk.
I too wonder how the professionals do it. I would imagine splitting the plants to propogate wouldn't produce enough offspring for the nurseries to bother, supposing that way even works.

[Jungle Jane]

The cuttings are producing thorns because of their periclinal chimeral characteristics. There's two quotes here talking about it,it's good to know the reason,life's too short for wondering why all night

"The blackberry ‘Cacanska Bestrna’ is a genetically thornless cultivar, meaning that it will remain thornless when propagated through vegetative organs other than the root suckers. However, this is not true of all cultivars. Namely, cvs. ‘Thornless Evergreen’ and ‘Thornless Logan’ are propagated only by tip layering or tissue culture (in vitro), since otherwise they will produce new thorny shoots due to the periclinal chimeral characteristics. Parentals of ‘Cacanska Bestrna’ are ‘Dirksen Thornless’ and ‘Black Satin’. These cultivars were nonhimeral and produced pure thornless canes."
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ring_Main_cane


"A classical example of an L.I periclinal chimera is the thornless blackberry. The epidermal layer of this type produces no "thorns" (the modified epidermal cells are correctly called "prickles"). The thornless epidermis covers a stem whose cells contain the information for the thorny genotype. This can be demonstrated by taking root cuttings. The adventitious shoots which differentiate on the root cuttings are not chimeral and therefore revert to the thorny genotype."
Origin, Development and Propagation of Chimeras

[digon]

The cuttings are producing thorns because of their periclinal chimeral characteristics. There's two quotes here talking about it,it's good to know the reason,life's too short for wondering why all night

"The blackberry ‘Cacanska Bestrna’ is a genetically thornless cultivar, meaning that it will remain thornless when propagated through vegetative organs other than the root suckers. However, this is not true of all cultivars. Namely, cvs. ‘Thornless Evergreen’ and ‘Thornless Logan’ are propagated only by tip layering or tissue culture (in vitro), since otherwise they will produce new thorny shoots due to the periclinal chimeral characteristics. Parentals of ‘Cacanska Bestrna’ are ‘Dirksen Thornless’ and ‘Black Satin’. These cultivars were nonhimeral and produced pure thornless canes."
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ring_Main_cane


"A classical example of an L.I periclinal chimera is the thornless blackberry. The epidermal layer of this type produces no "thorns" (the modified epidermal cells are correctly called "prickles"). The thornless epidermis covers a stem whose cells contain the information for the thorny genotype. This can be demonstrated by taking root cuttings. The adventitious shoots which differentiate on the root cuttings are not chimeral and therefore revert to the thorny genotype."
Origin, Development and Propagation of Chimeras

Thanks for finding that.
Reading the summary of the full article it seems to be saying propogation of lateral buds or tissue culture is the only way to keep the thornless properties of the original plant. The quote above seems to say tip layering will work? All a bit over my head I think.
I think I might try tip layering next and see what happens.

[fishpond]

Tip layering works on Gooseberries, I did it accidentally a few of years ago, plant is producing fruit, it is also a very straightforward method.