How many apple/plum/cherry trees to get decent harvest?

[nickdub]

Does anyone actually strive for quality fruit rather than bulk? I only have a few mature trees but even then I don't get those quantities nor would I actually aim for that. I know I am strange. As you were.

My personal aim is growing good tasting fruit without spraying on either fungicides or insecticides, and with as little effort on my part as is reasonable.
I'm fairly successful most years with apples and plums, rather less so with pears, cherries are problem because of pests and I have recently started with apricots in my poly-tunnel - soft fruit I can grow fine - how much I get to eat depends on the effectiveness of the netting each year except for strawberries where the combined forces of mice and birds have me experimenting with hanging growing systems..

[Paulie]

I have no useful information to add. However, I would just like to say thanks to all for the knowledgeable contributions and diverse opinions/experiences.
I have recently taken on an additional allotment plot and I too am considering some fruit trees, so all of the above is of much interest to me. Thanks!

[boatsman]

Fruit yields can easily fluctuate. In 2016 I had about 50 pomegranates from the tree. Last year I had about 4. Last year I had a lot of green lemon/limes, this year I have been picking up yellow fully ripe windfalls every day. In 2016 I had a small amount of blueberries but last year - nothing.

[Chestnut]

Don't know about anyone else but I've never achieved those ^^^ yields from any of my fruit trees/bushes - maybe the big apple trees, that's all. The cherries are pinched by birds before I taste them.
I'm clearly doing something wrong.

Don’t worry VC, the book didn’t mention anything about rootstocks, or whether these figures were for nonorganic growing, southern climates and sheltered gardens on south facing slopes with no birds, mice or wasps!

It sounds like I had better take my book with a pinch of salt, revise my plans and do a bit more fruit planting ;-)

[d000hg]

You can do the pruning any time when the leaves are off, but the grafting generally is done a bit later than now, say roughly early March depending on the weather. Also with pruning you are aiming with apples usually to open up the centre of the tree to let in light and air, so ideally you want a framework left a bit like an upside down umbrella. I always advise taking out a large branch or two first with a saw on mature trees if pruning is needed, and reserve any cutting back with secateurs until later in the year when you can see what the growth is like. (obviously other fruit needs different treatment eg plums should not be cut with a saw at all ideally and also not until Summer)

As for top grafting apples you can get your scion wood ready any time now and keep it in the fridge - (let me know if you want a list of varieties I have please). What I do is to cut off a branch cleanly then split it with a sharp knife. If the thickness is up to about the diameter of a hose pipe I use one split, bigger I use two at 90 degrees. The scion is cut with a wedge shape on its end, the split in the branch prised open with the knife point and the wedge inserted carefully to line up the cambium layers - take your time to get this as accurate as possible, usually you put one scion on each side of a split. Once the scions are in I bind up tight with wet raffia. Then after I've finished all the binding I go round with a small brush and a container of hot wax and paint that over the cut ends and binding etc. The scions which take will grow out with new leaves etc and you can cut the raffia away in August.

So useful, thanks! How do you get a container of hot wax, just toss a candle in a pan? I was thinking, is this another case where duck tape could work?!

And to anyone offering scions... Do let me know what you've got though I think with 6 Bramley trees just having a nice variety, particularly across pollination groups, would be fun.

[nickdub]

"So useful, thanks! How do you get a container of hot wax, just toss a candle in a pan? I was thinking, is this another case where duck tape could work?!! "

You're very welcome. For hot wax I keep bees, so I use bees' wax :-) and I heat it in a plastic container which I place inside a saucepan of hot water - best to have one with a lid so it doesn't cool too quickly. Obviously a lot of candles are made from quite a hard wax, so I'd be doubtful about that working well. I don't think duct tape would be a good option for this - perhaps some cling-film cut in to strips and wrapped tightly would work ? (the basic requirement is to prevent the exposed tissue from drying out, so you need something over the end of the cut as well as the sides)

apple varieties I have which I could let you have scion wood from, roughly in order of ripening :-
George Cave
James Grieve
Sunset
Orleans Reinette
Cox
Tydeman's late orange
Ashmead's kernel

[Hereford fruit grower]

My personal aim is growing good tasting fruit without spraying on either fungicides or insecticides, and with as little effort on my part as is reasonable.
I'm fairly successful most years with apples and plums, rather less so with pears, cherries are problem because of pests and I have recently started with apricots in my poly-tunnel - soft fruit I can grow fine - how much I get to eat depends on the effectiveness of the netting each year except for strawberries where the combined forces of mice and birds have me experimenting with hanging growing systems..

I find pears easy but the soil here is heavier than Ross-on-Wye. So far as I can tell, pears, especially on quince rootstocks, like it heavy.

I'd recommend 10 dwarf trees in the space of one to two large trees. I planted dwarf trees to save space - even in a large garden that's an issue - but a side-effect of so many varieties close by seems to be good to excellent cross-pollination. I may check in 2018 if I actually spend more time on the thinning than the pruning or picking.

I find M9 rootstock plenty large enough but it appears that some people find M9 fails because their soil's poor or they let weeds and grass grow right up to the trunk (or both of these).

However, I have friends with a garden on much poorer soil than me; I think it's shallow clay loam over limestone. Their apple trees on MM106, planted 25 years ago are pretty large now, maybe 4-5 metres. They're planted in a lawn which is left to grow quite long. They have one tree on M9 and it's coping.

[d000hg]

"So useful, thanks! How do you get a container of hot wax, just toss a candle in a pan? I was thinking, is this another case where duck tape could work?!! "

You're very welcome. For hot wax I keep bees, so I use bees' wax :-) and I heat it in a plastic container which I place inside a saucepan of hot water - best to have one with a lid so it doesn't cool too quickly. Obviously a lot of candles are made from quite a hard wax, so I'd be doubtful about that working well. I don't think duct tape would be a good option for this - perhaps some cling-film cut in to strips and wrapped tightly would work ? (the basic requirement is to prevent the exposed tissue from drying out, so you need something over the end of the cut as well as the sides)

apple varieties I have which I could let you have scion wood from, roughly in order of ripening :-
George Cave
James Grieve
Sunset
Orleans Reinette
Cox
Tydeman's late orange
Ashmead's kernel

How soon do you need to know? I'll read up on those varieties. Would they all graft onto Bramley OK?

[d000hg]

Does anyone actually strive for quality fruit rather than bulk? I only have a few mature trees but even then I don't get those quantities nor would I actually aim for that. I know I am strange. As you were.

For pies and jams and brewing I'd have assumed beautiful individual fruit are less important - and you do need quite a lot for these purposes. Obviously for eating fresh quality over quantity makes sense, plus how many apples can you eat so having thousands you don't use is a waste

[nickdub]

Probably best to have a look at some grafting videos on You-tube, a lot easier to explain with pictures.

For top-working a.k.a cleft grafting, or whip+tongue any time in the next couple of months would be time enough - budding you can do later in the year up to say mid-summer, but it requires a good steady hand when using the knife, as the pieces you are working with are much smaller.

Best to p.m. me if you want to get my attention, as I don't check every thread I have commented on. :-)

Your Bramleys will be easy enough to graft but you may have to be a bit canny later when pruning as Bramley is probably the strongest growing apple and will tend to takeover if left to its own devices. In the ideal world you would start by sawing off a good strong branch near the top center of your tree and grafting that over - you could subsequently discourage some of the non-grafted branches by summer pruning them judiciously - think of it as a 4 or 5 year project rather than just a one stop solution.

[d000hg]

Out of interest in the discussion about dwarf Vs large trees... If I got a non dwarf rootstock does that mean I can't keep it small, it just that it will take more work?

I'd prefer to buy local but while they have a good range, variety of rootstocks is limited.

[Hereford fruit grower]

I definitely wouldn't bother trying to dwarf a non-dwarfing rootstock to 2 m high. Too much work!
But I've always lived in areas with fairly heavy soil where even M9 trees grow too big if they're not pruned every summer.

If you have a poor soil, a less dwarf rootstock like MM106 might well produce reasonable-sized trees.

Incidentally, does everyone know of these excellent youtube videos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vURVEpcfTM
He lives in Hampshire and appears to grow apples on a light sandy soil. On those soils, I suppose less dwarf rootstocks might not grow too large.

[nickdub]

As has been said soil conditions and weather impact on the size of the tree and how fast it will get to its full size. I had a friend who gardened up on N Wales, trees that would have grown like Topsy for me preceded at a slow place on his site.

The variety of tree growing also has a smaller but significant impact on the rate of growth, even on the same root stock. For me a Bramley on M9 will grow almost as hard and fast as a Cox on MM106.

Bear in mind that a lot of the book figures are for mature trees - that's useful info as far as it goes but it may take 30 years for a newly planted apple to reach the mature size stated.

[d000hg]

Probably best to have a look at some grafting videos on You-tube, a lot easier to explain with pictures.

For top-working a.k.a cleft grafting, or whip+tongue any time in the next couple of months would be time enough - budding you can do later in the year up to say mid-summer, but it requires a good steady hand when using the knife, as the pieces you are working with are much smaller.

Best to p.m. me if you want to get my attention, as I don't check every thread I have commented on. :-)

Your Bramleys will be easy enough to graft but you may have to be a bit canny later when pruning as Bramley is probably the strongest growing apple and will tend to takeover if left to its own devices. In the ideal world you would start by sawing off a good strong branch near the top center of your tree and grafting that over - you could subsequently discourage some of the non-grafted branches by summer pruning them judiciously - think of it as a 4 or 5 year project rather than just a one stop solution.

(I'll PM you if you don't reply but so it's kept in the thread...)

Let me tell you what I've bought to plant and maybe you can advise me on a smaller number of varieties to graft and fill out my orchard rather than have several very similar varieties?

As well as 5 Bramleys (I miscounted if I said 6 before!) I've order/bought:

• Egremont Russet
• Cox's Orange Pippin
• Red Glow (CRAB)
• Black Dabinett (CIDER)
• Sweet Coppin (CIDER)

I was tempted to have a 2nd crab (Jelly King or John Downie or even Golden Hornet just for the pollination) and had been considering a more 'showy' red apple but would gladly take your advice what "gaps to fill" I've got.

[nickdub]

(I'll PM you if you don't reply but so it's kept in the thread...)



As well as 5 Bramleys (I miscounted if I said 6 before!) I've order/bought:

• Egremont Russet
• Cox's Orange Pippin
• Red Glow (CRAB)
• Black Dabinett (CIDER)
• Sweet Coppin (CIDER)

In order of ripening and just sticking to apples I know myself I'd asdd :-

George Cave - good early, but doesn't keep at all
James Grieve - one of the best apples for flavour, and if you thin the fruit early on they will grow plenty large enough to use as a cooker - don't see it in the shops much as it bruises easily after picking
Ashmead's Kernel - my favourite late keeping apple, can be a bugger to grow well in some places as, if it doesn't like the soil, it is a prime candidate for "bitter pit"

Of course taste in this as other things is a personal matter - I incline to the sharp end of the spectrum - others would probably rank sweet and juicy apples higher.