Scion rooting - apple trees

[devonuk]

How reliably do apples scion root when you positively want them too, and therefore bury the graft union?

[nickdub]

depends a bit on the soil and the time-scale. If its reasonably damp loam, and you left them with the union buried for more than about 3 years, I reckon you'd get 95% rooted from the scion.

Of course what the outcome of this, would very much depends on the variety and root-stocks in question - some types are much stronger growers than others and the impact of scion rooting on those for the overall size of the mature tree could be significant.

[devonuk]

Thank you.

I have some Devon banks where it would be quite fun to have a couple of standard apples, which would have to be planted into existing hedgerow, so I was thinking the cheapest way of doing this would be buy some £5 supermarket trees over the summer, plant them deep and see what happens.

[nickdub]

Thank you.

I have some Devon banks where it would be quite fun to have a couple of standard apples, which would have to be planted into existing hedgerow, so I was thinking the cheapest way of doing this would be buy some £5 supermarket trees over the summer, plant them deep and see what happens.

As I say the result you get will depend on the variety, Bramley is by far the strongest grower I know of the commonly grown apples - I reckon a Bramley on its own roots would probably top 60' eventually.

Bear in mind that apples come in to fruit partly depending on their maturity, so 20 years is not out of the way for a standard tree to get in to its stride, as it were.

BTW another way round setting about the project you outline, would be to germinate some apple pips and then after a couple of years use these pippins as root-stocks on to which you could graft the scions you wanted. This was the usual way of proceeding with apple trees up to about 100 years ago.

[veggiechicken]

Could you stick some cuttings in the hedgerow and let them do their own thing?
I have an apple tree grown that way.

[nickdub]

You could, though obviously you'd get a better "strike rate" if you started the cuttings in the normal way first for a year say, then subsequently transplanted them.

I remember back in the day I was picking plums on my cousin's farm and noticed that one of the trees in a field had different fruit to all the others. Intrigued I went back in the Spring and took some substantial cuttings with a view to try to bud them later in the year. As I often do I stuck the cuttings in the ground to keep, later on I went back and did a try at budding which proved unsuccessful. What I didn't realise til some time later was that one of the cuttings had been left in the ground and had rooted. I still have that tree and it now crops - I'm not sure what the variety is but my best guess is "Dymock Red".

[veggiechicken]

My tree came from an allotment neighbour. Apparently, they'd pruned/broken off a branch and stuck it in the ground without thinking of the consequences. They offered it to me for my plot but I brought it home instead. Its been here about 15 years - lovely apples, whatever they are. It produces a lot of burr knots however.

Some chat about it at https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...ree_65574.html
Unfortunately the photos are missing.

[devonuk]

I have a lot of this years seedlings from supermarket apples, mainly gala and granny smith. I'm inclined to put some of these out there and leave them to it - the object is large trees, plus blossom - I contemplate any fruit being eaten as windfalls by whatever stock is in the fields. I was slightly hoping that the scion rooting plan would give a combination of rootstock precocity plus scion vigour; of course it's an extra complication that supermarkets keep the identity of the rootstock strictly to themselves.

[Micklemus]

Bramley apple can be rooted over winter from a cutting

As I say the result you get will depend on the variety, Bramley is by far the strongest grower I know of the commonly grown apples - I reckon a Bramley on its own roots would probably top 60' eventually.

Bear in mind that apples come in to fruit partly depending on their maturity, so 20 years is not out of the way for a standard tree to get in to its stride, as it were.

BTW another way round setting about the project you outline, would be to germinate some apple pips and then after a couple of years use these pippins as root-stocks on to which you could graft the scions you wanted. This was the usual way of proceeding with apple trees up to about 100 years ago.

I took 7 cuttings from cloned trees that are mature that were grown by cloning the Bramley buds from Southwell... I felt it was a challenge that was stated by the horticulture professor who said 'publicly' that it was impossible to root a bramley from a cutting!........ I got three saplings to root which of course are identicle to the 'mother' Bramley apple that ALL Bramleys came from. I planted one on a farm in North Wales, gave one to a relative in Mansfield and lastly one to a lady who lives just up the road.... These babies are all doing well. Last year's winter in Wales was a cold one and it killed the top of the Bramley I planted there but in the summer low and behold a new shoot sprouted about 6 inches from the ground and was growing well by autumn. I protected it from the winds by wrapping polythene sheet round the wire netting but left the top open....... The frosts have not been so bad this this winter so this youngster may well grow taller and stronger.......

I told the friendly farmer who soon whipped out a stump where this Bramley is planted that he will have the best apple pies in the land when it is producing! It will be something to remember me by?

So while the production rate is low with 3 out of 7 cuttings I was successful and proved the professor incorrect in that it is not impossible to root a bramley from a cutting! I may add that they were all irishmans cuttings -- with a heel left on the straight part as it is said that there are more cells that will root in such cuttings. Always Always keep an open mind.

[nickdub]

Thanks for passing on that very interesting story - it would be worth making some sort of permanent label for your Bramley with the relevant details on it to record its origin for people in the future - maybe a piece if slate with the info inscribed in to it ?

[devonuk]

Genuinely don't know the answers to this: is there any reason for a direct clone of the original tree to differ from any other true to name Bramley (which is just a clone of a clone of a clone ... of the original)?

[Lardman]

is there any reason for a direct clone of the original tree to differ from any other true to name Bramley (which is just a clone of a clone of a clone ... of the original)?

In theory they will be the same - however, natural mutations occur and selective propagation has resulted in a not so identical apple; Bramley 20 is a perfect example. Some people thinking the Bramley in particular has lost some of it's original distinctive properties and qualities.