Forest Garden Design

[JT101]

Hi everyone

I have two allotment plots. One of which I was referring to in another post, so to save confusing the issue, I've started a new thread here. This plot is smaller, and more challenging to apply certain principles, but akin to what most people may have as a small back garden, plus it is less rigid in design to my other plot and can be planted more like a forest. Approx 13.5m x 3.5m in size. The longer dimension being in the East - West plane, and sloping slightly downwards at about a 3 deg drop, so about 70cm drop i.e. an east - west facing slope. The location is South East london.

The greenhouse, and curved wall of greengages, are installed, and won't be removed, as this creates a little social area I want to keep. All the plants listed have also been purchased so I would like them to go in (they're all currently about 2-3yrs old). In between all the spaces will be footpaths, and other shrubs and ground cover, as yet to be planted but will be put in according to space and shade requirements.

So the main trees to the west of the greengage wall design is flexible (there is also a small amount of space free to the south of the greenhouse). I've put together a few scenarios. I can't seem to attach images into here so I've set up a folder with 3 different possible scenarios and the Sketchup file: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IY...QzXufUT-_MR9_6

I've colour coded them based on sun/shade requirements from Martin Crawfords book.

Yellow (Prefers full sun. Tolerates no shade.)
Orange (Prefers full sun. Tolerates light shade (min 4.5hrs direct sun per day))
Green (Prefers full sun. tolerates moderate shade (min 1-2hrs direct sun per day)
Blue (Prefers full sun. Tolerates fairly deep shade. (No direct sun but some indirect light))

None of the plants are that tall, which does create some issues. I have shrubs which will potentially grow to 2.5-3m tall, whilst some dwarf trees will supposedly get to 1 - 1.5m tall which doesn't fit the neat layering or understorey pattern of canopy trees, fruit trees, shrubs, herbs, ground cover etc. There is a height restriction here, so the shrubs are at the top end.


Not sure if it's clear from the images but the plants are (expected height x spread):

Yellow: Siberian pea tree (1.5m x 1m or 5ft x 3.3ft), Dwarf Almond (1m x 1m or 3.3ft x 3.3ft), Dwarf Mulberry (1.5m x 1.5m or 5ft x 5ft)
Orange: Carolina Allspice (2.5 x 2.5m or 8.2ft x 8.2ft), Strawberry tree (arbutus) (1.8m x 1.8m or 6ft x 6ft)
Green: Mountain Pepper shrub (2.5 x 2.5m or 8.2ft x 8.2ft)
Blue: New Zealand Flax (1.2m x 1m or 4ft x 3.3ft), red Currant bush (1.5 x 1m or 5ft x 3.3ft)

Unfortunately I've been over this so many times, I've over-thought it and confused myself. Basically I want to follow forest garden principles such as efficient spacing, consideration of shade/sun requirements, diversity, perennial planting, and nitrogen fixing etc

Any comments gladly appreciated.

I'll attach one of the sketchup models too, encase you have sketchup.

[nickdub]

Is you're main aim with this section something :-
1) to look at
2) to relax in
3) edible
4) ????

[veggiechicken]

Is this the same plot as you asked about in https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...nts_96398.html
If so, shall I merge them as there are plans in your first thread?

[chrisdb]

If the final heights and rates of growth are similar, and you give them enough space, they won't shade each other out, so more or less any arrangement will probably work unless there are obstacles outside of the site that shade it.

But if you're worried I would put the larger trees to the north and down-slope. Since down-slope is away from your social area, if you're careful and use wider spacings where the smaller plants are in the south-east corner, you can make things feel more open. You don't want things to get too dense in the most trafficked areas, otherwise it will feel oppressive. Even Martin Crawford's book recommends spacings that give <50% canopy cover.

Some other things you might want to think about:

1. If you're growing the pea tree because you want it to fix nitrogen, maybe you should put it somewhere in the middle of the site?

2. Almonds flower very early, so you want the most sheltered spot possible for it. If you're going to wrap it up in fleece then being near a wall might also be handy.

Based on that, what about the following:

Allspice - Mountain Pepper - Mulberry
Strawberry Tree - Pea Tree - Almond (next to your greengage support)

The redcurrant will be happy almost anywhere and can be pruned to fit (I have a hedge of them that fruits pretty well). The flax is non-woody so also easy to fit where feels right after you've got the woody shrubs in.

[Jungle Jane]

Is there a plot to the east of you that would be shaded in the mornings by 3m tall trees?

[chrisdb]

Wouldn't it be to the west, or am I confused about the orientation of his plans?

Both of the biggest shrubs respond well to pruning according to Google. Maybe he could just give them a hard pruning every now and then to keep them a bit smaller?

[JT101]

Is this the same plot as you asked about in https://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gr...nts_96398.html
If so, shall I merge them as there are plans in your first thread?

Hi Veggie chicken

No, this is a different plot, and quite a different layout. That was more of a vineyard, with some trained fruit trees. This is more bush trees, shrubs and whatever else

Thanks

[JT101]

Is you're main aim with this section something :-
1) to look at
2) to relax in
3) edible
4) ????

All of the above. But I do it mentally in order. Function before form is how I approach it.
So in this order:

1) Edible - I have tried to cover a variety food types: Fruits, nuts, pepper replacement, cinammon replacement, and eventually many other foods once I have the trees and shrubs mapped out
2) Low maintenance & self sustaining - Miccorhyzal fungi (can never spell it), lots of mulch and ground cover, and
3) To relax in - MY social area will feature a rocket stove, wood store and firepit
4) To look at - The social area is at the top of the plot, offering a view of the valley, and the curved trellis for the greengage with a garden archway is nice to look at.


Thanks

[JT101]

Is there a plot to the east of you that would be shaded in the mornings by 3m tall trees?

I don't have 3m tall trees. I have 2.5m tall shrubs, but they're at the western end of the plot (current design)

[JT101]

Wouldn't it be to the west, or am I confused about the orientation of his plans?

Both of the biggest shrubs respond well to pruning according to Google. Maybe he could just give them a hard pruning every now and then to keep them a bit smaller?

Aha, yep sounds like she meant west. No, fortunately there is a wide grass footpath to the west. And behind me is another half plot that is derilect.

[Nicos]

Is there a plot to the east of you that would be shaded in the mornings by 3m tall trees?

I was wondering about that too.
On our last site we had height restrictions for trees as well as sheds/polytunnels. (Plus the plot was to be used for edibles.)
I do hope you are planning within the your terms of contract....I'm sure you must have already checked that out?
Sorry....best to mention it now

Must say..it looks a fantastic idea!

[veggiechicken]

Hi Veggie chicken

No, this is a different plot, and quite a different layout. That was more of a vineyard, with some trained fruit trees. This is more bush trees, shrubs and whatever else

Thanks

Ah, right, - only you mentioned a Forest Garden on there too so I thought this might be the same plot with another design.
My only concern with all this is that you will spend so much time thinking and re-thinking that you will lose a year when your plants could be in the ground, growing.
Without wishing to be nosey (me, never ) are you planting for the long term - intending to stay there for many years. Some of the plants will take years to reach cropping stage - so, if you're looking for "edibility" you have a long wait which could be shortened if you chose different fruiting plants.