does anyone save their own seeds?

[Kristen]

Bit tangential but:

The last many-years my local garden centre (part of Garden Centre Group, formerly Wyevales) has had a 50p-a-packet sale in September. I buy probably 90% of my Veg seed then, including buying an extra packet of anything that has reasonably long viability and will keep a year, unopened (in case they have sold out by the time of next year's sale). This enables me to buy F1 varieties that I like, but very affordably (a packet of 4 Cucumber seeds normally 5-quid is a bargain at 50p ) and saves me having to grow-for-seed (for example Leeks take up space, until they flower & set seed, that I would prefer to use for something else - although I suppose I could just transplant a few to the Ornamental part of the garden; Runner Beans are easy - just leave one plant at the end of the row to keep pods to maturity, towards the end of the season - no extra effort for that veg family).

So a large part of my focus is on buying seed cheaply, rather than the extra work of saving-my-own seed. I do save my own seed for unusual ornamentals as they are both expensive and often their viability is poor - perhaps the seed has been stored for years before sale whereas my fresh seed germinates like Cress! Salvia patens for example, often only 5 or maybe 10 seeds in a packet of anything "interesting" and costing a couple of quid at least ... I can get 100 seeds off the plants that I grow easily My ornamentals are in place until the end of the year, so no real hassle to let them carry a seed crop too.

[IslandAnne]

This is an area that I am keen to learn about but as a complete newbie I have loads questions.

I think I understand F1 seeds - 2 parents cross-bred to produce a particular seed. I am trying some F1 Sungold tomato seeds. If my Sungold tomato plant succeeds, I cannot save the seed to grow from as this is likely to break down into constituent parents.

Does F1 seeds = hybrid seeds? or are they two different types of seeds? Are they really that special and is that why there are only 8ish seeds for £3?

What about the other packs eg B&Q radish seeds or normal Unwins French Beans - can I save seed from these veg or will these seeds be sterile?

What are open-pollinated seeds?

What are heirloom seeds?

Really keen to start to understand this area as I feel vulnerable as a new consumer / veg-grower. I feel like I'm in a supermarket getting sold loads of stuff that I probably have no need for.

TIA, Annexxx

[4390evans]

From the info I can gather her is what I found Island Anne

One kind of seed, called First generation hybrids (F1 hybrids), have been hand-pollinated, and are patented, often sterile, genetically identical within food types, and sold from multinational seed companies.

A second kind of seeds are genetically engineered. Bio-engineered seeds are fast contaminating the global seed supply on a wholesale level, and threatening the purity of seeds everywhere. The DNA of the plant has been changed. A cold water fish gene could be spliced into a tomato to make the plant more resistant to frost, for example.

A third kind of seeds are called heirloom or open-pollinated, genetically diverse jewels that have been passed on from generation to generation.


If this is wrong some one will be along to correct it, @veggie chicken or bill maybe they are brilliant when it comes to all the confusing stuff of gardening x

[Ja9]

Legumes are easy to save but the runner beans are rather promiscuous . Tried saving numex twilight chilli but that wasn't successful.seeds saved from a supermarket bought butternut squash worked fantastically but I think due in part to the good summer last year and long ripening time. The squash however wasn't as tasty as hunter that I had previously bought.Agree that particularly if space is short you can nurture something for months that can be disappointing

[veggiechicken]

If this is wrong some one will be along to correct it, @veggie chicken or bill maybe they are brilliant when it comes to all the confusing stuff of gardening x

Thanks for the confidence Jen - but you should know better than to believe anything that I say I can't speak for Bill, of course...............
I rarely grow F1 (hybrid) seeds unless, like Kristen and so many others here, I've bought them for 50p in an end of season sale. There is no point saving seeds from them as they will not grow true although there are some F2 (child of F1) seeds available where the variance from the parent F1 plant is considered acceptable.
Otherwise, my seeds are freebies from magazines, open pollinated seeds from Organic growers like Real Seeds, heirloom (old varieties no longer commercially avavilable) seeds from the Heritage Seed Library or swaps with other Forum members via http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...nce_68032.html

or a Seed Circle.http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...cle_76488.html
If you are confident that the seeds you save have not been cross-pollinated and will grow true to their parents then swapping is a great way to save money, as well as trying something new.

[Kristen]

I think I understand F1 seeds - 2 parents cross-bred to produce a particular seed.

Most commonly the parents are "pure bred lines" - so refined over generations. Lets say you have one Tall and one Blue. Over several generations the Tall variety are maintained and any that are not tall are pulled out and thrown away - so that you wind up with "All Tall".

Then the Tall and the Blue are crossed to give F1 seed which is "All Tall and Blue". That's the F1. The children will be either Tall, Blue or Both

(Oversimplified example! Mendelian genetics is more complicated than that! but you may have done experiments at school with Drosophila flies or similar where some had This and some had That characteristic, and its much the same with F1 seed)

I am trying some F1 Sungold tomato seeds. If my Sungold tomato plant succeeds, I cannot save the seed to grow from as this is likely to break down into constituent parents.

There are some things that seem to grow fine from seed saved from F1 (Sweet Million tomato seeds is the example I see most often - folk say saved-seed is no different to original F1 seed) - so it can be a bit debatable whether its Marketing Hype, or Hours and Hours of Labour going into making them. Some F1 seed is as pretty much the same price as non F1 - my assumption is that pollination of these is easy, or each plant produces masses of seed.

F1 Cucumbers at £5 for 4 seeds I presume is a lot of manual effort - not least of which, probably, is the maintenance of the Pure Bred parent lines.

I have bought expensive F1 seed of Squash and Chillies - always wondered why it was expensive as they seem easy to pollinate, and product masses of seeds ...

Does F1 seeds = hybrid seeds? or are they two different types of seeds?

Yes. Parent A crossed with Parent B is a "hybrid"

Are they really that special and is that why there are only 8ish seeds for £3?

That's up to the Buyer ...

I think a lot of F1 is marketing hype ... I've seen lots of "Wonder" varieties come ... and go I also see lots of people each year saying "Such-and-Such in So-and-So's catalogue looks amazing, I've bought loads" or whatever - thus I figure the marketing works!! Personally I grow the same varieties year in, year out, that I know we like to eat. Each year I grow a few others and now and again, but not often, I find one I prefer and that then becomes my stalwart.

But if you have Clubroot, or some other terrible disease, and F1 gives you a resistant variety, then I reckon its definitely worthwhile. Also: F1 Varieties of Sweetcorn have been bred to be shorter and thus mature more quickly which means you get a crop in the UK - even in a lousy summer. Heirloom varieties grow very tall, take a while to mature, and you need a good summer for them otherwise you get nothing. Similarly for other long-summer crops, like Butternut Squash. For some F1 the flavour is better - I can't think of anything F1 I grow for flavour though ... I have F1 Cauliflower that I find head-up much better than the heirloom ones I used to grow - but now I am finding the seed of that F1 variety very hard to find - the marketing people have moved on to the Next Big Thing

What about the other packs eg B&Q radish seeds or normal Unwins French Beans - can I save seed from these veg or will these seeds be sterile?

What are open-pollinated seeds?

What are heirloom seeds?

All the same - kinda. "Open pollinated" means that the Bees (or wind etc.) can carry pollen from one to another and are thus "open". "Heirloom" means that the variety is from yesteryear - seed saved year after year - which I guess comes to the same thing - no specialist breeding involved.

The only problem you may have with "can I save seed from these veg" is if they cross pollinate. Some veg are self pollinating - they don't rely on bees / wind to pollinate them, and thus only very rarely get cross pollinated - others are very promiscuous. If you, or your neighbour, aren't growing another variety (or if it flowers at a different time) then there won't be any other pollen around to cross-pollinate yours, and your seed will be "pure". (If you have grown an F1 parent then the seed you get will be "Pure F1 Offspring" - which may be a mix of characteristics, although as said before that's not always a problem)

Don't forget that all the heirloom varieties that exist came about by chance breeding at some point - either by Mother Nature or our ancestors.

One kind of seed, called First generation hybrids (F1 hybrids), have been hand-pollinated, and are patented, often sterile, genetically identical within food types, and sold from multinational seed companies.

Not sure I've seen any that are Patented, but I expect it is possible (pedantically its Plant Breeders Rights, which is a branch of Intellectual Property protection, rather than a Patent, and means that anyone propagating the plant for re-sale has to pay a royalty, but there is no restriction on propagating for your own use - nor, I guess, to give to friends).

Not sure about the multinational seed companies??. Following the war, and into the 60's and 70's most of the breeding was done by research institutes many of which were government owned. I suspect its still the case that plenty of breeding is done in academia rather than multi-national companies, and apart from crops sold in huge volumes for agriculture there will be much smaller productions done by small, specialist, outfits. I don't see why You and I couldn't do it, for example- I mean: I don't think its different to an enthusiast who loves, say, Daffodils and cross-breeds them, growing on millions of seedlings for a couple of years, throwing away all but the best, and eventually winding up with a few new cultivars of their own. Big Business may have more "wherewithal" to do the job faster and on a larger scale though (Along with other agendas - such as breeding Roundup-resistant crops ...)

A second kind of seeds are genetically engineered. Bio-engineered seeds are fast contaminating the global seed supply on a wholesale level, and threatening the purity of seeds everywhere. The DNA of the plant has been changed. A cold water fish gene could be spliced into a tomato to make the plant more resistant to frost, for example.

The debate brings out strongly held views of course ... are the genes being introduced in some way less beneficial to the population at large? Perhaps cold-tolerant fish genes getting into all Tomatoes would benefit the whole crop?? ... things like Terminator Genes are some I worry about though.

What I do think is important is to preserve genetic diversity, in specialist farms if necessary, as humans are hell-bent on mono-culture of single varieties that have the best / most economic performance. Look at Bananas for example, the varieties with the best economics are vegetatively produced, grown widely, and now at threat from variety-specific disease worldwide.

I have never come across genetically engineered seed available to amateurs. probably only a matter of time (and I would be keen to hear if anyone else has seen any) It does raise the issue as to whether the breeders are in close proximity to where GM crops (of the same vegetable family, natch) are growing, which creates a risk of cross contamination.

[IslandAnne]

Thank you for taking the time to type all this out Kristen - I really appreciate it

I did some reading around after I posted my question to start to get my head around all the terminology. I learnt that some older popular / stable F1 varieties are now classed as open-pollinated many years down the line.

I also read that the seeds we buy are mostly the same as those used in large-scale agriculture - they are just packaged and marketed for the consumer.

Also I read that most of the seed bought in the UK is mass-produced overseas, bought and packaged by the various companies and sold on to us.

I find this really interesting and love learning about it all - bit of a nerd

Thanks again, Annexxx

[Kristen]

I learnt that some older popular / stable F1 varieties are now classed as open-pollinated many years down the line.

yes, good point. In my earlier example of crossing a Tall plant with a Blue plant it is quite possible that the offspring will also be all Tall and Blue Just depends which traits are dominant.