Starting a veg patch on thick grass...

[shmeen]

Helloo,

My husband and I have just taken on a allotment that's been 'dormant' (overgrown with grass and weeds) for around 2 years. Just after some advice about how to start turning it back into veg patch for next spring please

It's on the side of a steep hill and at the moment we're planning to rotivate it, dig in some manure, and then cover it with plastic tarps until spring time. Is this a good idea or are we just feeding the grass? Should we leave the manure and/or rotivating until the spring?

Also, I'd like to have a small patch ready to plant some onions and cabbages in to overwinter in a closh - should I remove the turf and dig in some manure a couple of weeks before I want to plant?

We've been growing veg in pots wherever we could fit them in the yard for a couple of years but have never had actual ground to plant in! Any help would be great

Thanks a lot,
Shmeen

[Snadger]

Hi shmeen and welcome to the vine.

Does no one dig anymore? Very theraputic you know, especially on a cold winters day........usually have the allotments to yourself and it keeps you warm! Digging is better than rotavating AND you can remove the grass roots as you are going.
By digging a bit at a time you can also plant up the dug area as you go.

I realise everyone isn't fully fit, but if you are, why pay to join a sports club when you can do a bit of digging instead.

You only need do it once, then you can plant up, apply a deep mulch and never need a spade again if you go for a 'no dig' system!

Psycologically digging a small bed in autum/winter then planting it up gives you a great feeling of achievement.

[binley100]

cover to kill of top growth, then rake to clear dead stuff, dig to remove roots , recover, dig again going in opposite direction to get roots missed first time round , cover till needed . Do a bed at a time, not the whole lot in one go. It gets easier and its a great sense of achievement to see it taking shape. Take photos as well so you can see what you've done especially when you get something growing. As Snadger says its very therapeutic and a great way to keep fit but take it gradually especially if like me you have back problems.

[organic]

Another issue with rotavating right away is the weeds issue.
If you've got things like dandelions or horsetail on the plot, rotavating cuts the tops of the roots off leaving some of the main root in place and spreads the cut up bits of root around possibly making the weed problem even worse.
Or so I've read.

I'm clearing my first allotment now, using a fork to dig up the perennial weeds by the roots and then deep digging the soil. Like Snadger I think digging is great. I've got a fair bit to do but don't see it as a chore at all. I've got no intention of using the rotavator that's available to me.

If you're physically able I can't recommend it enough. Stopping for a rest after a few hours of digging and being completely blown away by just how much ground you've cleared (and I wasn't going all that fast) is very rewarding in itself. I though we'd weeded about a 6th to a quarter of the plot... we'd done closer to a third - a very nice feeling.


Another way to deal with grass is, I believe, double digging, turning the turf so it's green-side-down when putting it back into the trench. (Read up about double digging and it'll be clear what I mean by that.)


The approach I'm taking (clearing a weed covered plot with very little grass) is to get the weeds out (getting all the roots possible out on the deep rooted perennials) - mark out my beds - double dig them - plant some overwinter crops like Onion "Radar", Garlic, Mustard Greens "green in snow", and the likes and for most (maybe all) of the rest, sowing some "green manure" - either Grazing Rye (Secal cereale) or Phacelia (Phacelia tanacetifolia) - which I'll be digging into the soil a while before it's time to start planting new things next year.

I hope you enjoy getting started as much as I am at the moment!

[bobleponge]

Welcome to the Vine Shmeen.
My veggie plot started out as a piece of my garden, grass weeds and all other such things.
I dug out the top layer of grass and dug the clay over, adding some rotted manure and dug it in, although that can be left for the worms to do if you have no wish to dig.
Depending on how large your plot is, I would probably dig over the majority of it, take the top layer of turf off and turn it upside down, this will rot the grass etc down, giving nutrients back into the soil, put well rotted manure down if you can get hold of any, and then cover it with cardboard (free boxes at your local supermarket?) weighted down with whatever you can find. This will discourage the weeds from growing back by blocking the light, and will nourish the soil when you dig it over again in the spring.
For the area that you want to use for overwintered onions, I would take off the turf, and then dig over that patch of ground. Chuck a bit of compost/manure on the dug over bit, dig it in again, leave for a couple of weeks to let it settle and then plant your sets. If they are overwintering onions you wont need a cloche unless you live somewhere incredibly northern (if you put your location into your profile people will be able to give more local, less generic advice) and I think the same will go for cabbages although someone who has actually grown them may well advise you differently.

Good luck and enjoy it.

[rana]

The advantage of it being an allotment is that the soil will have been worked in the past so should have decent depth and structure despite being laid 'fallow' for a couple of seasons. It may be feasable to just turn the grass in to rot down in the soil (as stated by Bobleponge), unless it is cooch grass in which case it will be better to cover the site or burn it off with glyphosate. Rotovating gives instant visual results but spreads perennial root bound weeds which could then take years to remove.

[Two_Sheds]

It may be feasable to just turn the grass in to rot down in the soil (as stated by Bobleponge), unless it is cooch grass

and being an allotment, it is very likely to be couch grass. It will just come back if you don't dig it right out. Absolutely do not rotavate couch grass or any of the like.

[shmeen]

Wow - thanks for all the responses! I think we'll dig the bit we want to plant now by removing the turf and adding in some manure too - can we add the removed turf to the compost heap? The rest I think we'll try the double digging method and turn the turf over at the bottom of the trench then cover it over until spring. We're perfectly able and it was good fun being up there all last weekend.

Thanks again for all your answers!

[organic]

Is there a particular reason you don't want to double dig the first bit?
I'd have thought most things that go in around now could cope with waiting a touch longer while you dig the bed over fully.
That's assuming a lot about your location of course.

Speaking of which, if you click the UserCP link at the top of your page and fill in your location on the "Edit Your Details" page people will be able to see what area you're in and give slightly less general responses.

I can't wait to get to the allotment this weekend. I do have a lot of work on so won't be able to go both days, which is a shame because the weather looks like it might be perfect, but it'll be nice to head down and do some more digging anyway.

[organic]

Actually I've been wondering, this seems as good a place to ask as any as I think shmeen might benefit from the answer...

I've seen plenty of people mention double digging and then covering with plastic or card until springtime, is there a particular reason to do that rather than double digging and then sowing a green manure straight away? I'd have thought having roots in the soil and nitrogen being fixed would be a far better approach - I've never done this bit before though so I dunno.

[Two_Sheds]

I've seen plenty of people mention double digging and then covering with plastic or card

I would've said it was the other way around.
Cover the worst weeds for a few months so that they weaken significantly, and then digging is much, much easier.

There's nothing heroic about hurting your back.

[Two_Sheds]

covering with plastic or .... sowing a green manure ?

I'd always have something growing, given the choice; and I reduce my use of plastics to the bare minimum. (reducing my dependency on oil is more important to me than being "organic"; and trying not to buy something that will end up in landfill)

Some people don't have the confidence to use a green manure (it can complicate a crop rotation scheme), or don't want the extra work of digging it in.

Some green manures aren't easy to dig in ... Ryegrass was a nightmare, so I stick to Limnanthes now.

And some folk are still wedded to the idea that the soil needs a "rest", rather than being cultivated year-round.

[organic]

On the plastic front, as far as I know we're not allowed any of that at our place now. I think they are coming to the idea that it should have stuff growing on it and not just be sitting idle.
It does look better this way, though does mean less ease getting rid of weeds.

Good point on being a bit further from oil and landfill. It's my intention to not throw anything away if I can help it... all excess plants, rotten crops, scraps, grass cuttings, leaves, weeds and so on will be dug in or composted and no, plastic doesn't really fit that.

I may be lucky that I've never had a rotation scheme of any sort so green manure doesn't seem like an extra complication. I can see how others might find it a bit tougher though.

Thanks for the point about rye grass... I may avoid that one myself.

I wonder where the "rest" idea comes from.

[roitelet]

Wow - thanks for all the responses! I think we'll dig the bit we want to plant now by removing the turf and adding in some manure too - can we add the removed turf to the compost heap? The rest I think we'll try the double digging method and turn the turf over at the bottom of the trench then cover it over until spring. We're perfectly able and it was good fun being up there all last weekend.

Thanks again for all your answers!

I would not add the turf to the compost heap but I would stack it in a nice tidy square and cover it, leave it for a year or two and then you will have some really nice loam to add to your veg patch.

Best of luck

[Lazgaot]

Double digging....ooh sounds like very hard work. Are there many advantages of doing it?

Back on topic...there is some good advice on here already but I'll add my 2p worth. Start off by strimming (nice and close) and removing all the weeds and grass. Cover with cardboard any ground you are not working at the moment. Give it a good 1-2 layers and add newspaper etc for thickness, then spread manure over the top to weigh it down and leave it till spring.The weeds underneath will be pretty much dead by then and the cardboard pretty rotted through. Depending on the maure/compost you used you could plant straight into this now, or dig it in with a fork.The soil will be very workable. Pull out all the perennial roots you can find.
Have a look at Charles Dowding's site for his articles on clearing allotments.

Good luck