Organic/Safe(?) weed killers - any recommendations?

[Samuel1988]

Morning all,

Due to limitations on time, I am searching for an alternative way (then digging them out) to tackle the weeds on the paths of my allotment (namely those between the raised beds).

I was wondering if anyone could recommend any organic/safe weed killers which I can use to tackle these weeds. Also can I make any organic weed killers?

I am only considering this area and not on the areas where I intend to grow in currently - I will hand dig these weeds out.

I was also considering using newspaper mulch and bark chippings but I'm not sure if I can layer this directly over the weeds or if I have to kill them off/remove them first.

Thanks for your time in replying to me,

Samuel

[Nicos]

Here are some ideas...

https://www.pinterest.com/judydinsmo...ntrol-natural/

Boiling water and burning are alternatives.

[alldigging]

Docks and dandelions need digging out really but everything else can be covered up.

[Alison]

Although couch grass will get through practically anything given time

[Kristen]

I've said this in another thread, and don't want to appear to be banging a drum in favour of weedkillers, or Mega Corporations like Monsanto. I know weedkillers have there are Fans, but probably on this site the majority are in the "No, not ever" camp. I put weedkiller on my vegetable plot initially "just the once", I have not used it near my edibles since, but I do use it around my ornamentals (to tackle Bindweed etc.) and on paths etc.

In terms of "safe" I think it depends what the definition of Safe is for weed killers. It seems to me that pretty much all of them have been withdrawn after XX years as further research has shown them to be harmful. Some of the ones we used to have turned out to be neuro-toxins and did-for many agricultural workers.

Most amateur weedkillers are based around an active ingredient of Glyphosate (which interferes with the chemistry in the root of the plant). Conspiracy theorists are likely to disbelieve the published science (and it is entirely possible that Mega Corporate has bribed officials and suppressed all research that proves that Product X is bad - the Tobacco industry had a jolly good go at doing just that for decades ...). I prefer to work on the basis of believing proper peer reviewed science - and thus ignoring any Rant websites, of which there are many, that make This Claim or That Claim but are uncorroborated & unsubstantiated by any proper science (other than links to other such websites that make similar claims - that is not "peer-reviewed" science )

So ... on that basis of my definition of "safe"

My understanding is that the active ingredient Glyphosate itself has very low toxicity. It has been around for ages now, lots of tests done, and so on.

The main problem with toxicity in weedkillers is in the other chemicals that are added. For example, the chemical that makes the stuff "stick" to the leaf when you apply it ("Surfactants" e.g. detergents / wetting agents) and then other stuff that helps the active ingredient pass through the surface of the leaf into the cells and along the transport system within the plant (its got to get to the roots to do its stuff ...). Collectively these are referred to as "Adjuvants", and they are the ones which have tended to be most toxic. They have definitely been harmful to aquatic life (due to an ability for concentrations to build up in waterways such that they then cause problems).

Monsanto originally "discovered" Glyphosate, had the original Patents etc., sold it under the brand name "Roundup" and are now at the forefront of Genetic Modification research - trying to produce crops that are immune to Glyphosate so that they can sell more Roundup for use on crops that won't be killed by it ... another highly emotive subject

Monsanto have recently come up with a new formulation of Roundup which uses Adjuvants that are not toxic. The good news is that they are non toxic to Aquatic wildlife. The less good news is that AFAIK the new formulations are not yet included in any products that are available to amateurs (the commercial products are available on eBay I expect, regardless of the requirements to sell to "trained professionals")

Top and bottom of this is that the latest formulations of Monsanto's Roundup no longer carry a "Hazardous" symbol (and AFAIK all the Generic Brand weedkillers containing Glyphosate are still marked Hazardous).

So in terms of "safe" that might qualify

[bearded bloke]

Monsanto have recently come up with a new formulation of Roundup which uses Adjuvants that are not toxic. The good news is that they are non toxic to Aquatic wildlife. The less good news is that AFAIK the new formulations are not yet included in any products that are available to amateurs (the commercial products are available on eBay I expect, regardless of the requirements to sell to "trained professionals")

Top and bottom of this is that the latest formulations of Monsanto's Roundup no longer carry a "Hazardous" symbol (and AFAIK all the Generic Brand weedkillers containing Glyphosate are still marked Hazardous).

So in terms of "safe" that might qualify

I got out of touch with my mate who crop sprayed commercially when he emigrated so am a bit behind on this stuff,interesting bit of research there Kristen,thanks for posting

[Bill HH]

There is little doubt that things are MUCH safer now than they were 40 years ago. On the farm we used to use Boots bracken brushwood and nettle killer. My dad used to sit me on an egg crate with a bucket of this stuff and a stirrup pump. in the transport box of our little grey fergy. he would drive round the farm looking for patches of nettles etc. That was fine but every time he hit a pot hole or applied the brakes the contents of the bucket was deposited into my wellies or into my lap. I was soaked in the first few minutes. This stuff contained 2,4,5 T which is just about one of the most toxic substances around (Now banned) and was the main ingerdient of Agent Orange used in vietnam. Due to complaints from ramblers to the ministry of agriculture that thistles were scratching their delicate legs we were forced to spray our entire farm (106 acres) with Mcpa selective weed killer, it killed the thisles but wiped out all the beautiful wild flowers in our meadows too.
After an attack of red mite in our poultry my father was recommended to use flea beetle dust intended for cabages, it was highly effective but involved using a tin bath and dusting each chicken (10,000) in it, of course they flapped their wings and I worked for many hours in a cloud of this stuff, my throat and nose were packed with this stuff for days. Flee beetle dust was DDT (now banned). Add to that toxic mix organophosphorous sheep dips (caused terrible nerve damage to many farmers), formadyhyde foot baths (carcinogenic) for foot rot in sheep (all now banned) and it seems to me I am a walking medical miracle and very fortunate to have had 2 healthy children.
My point is that then, we just did not know, or were not told just how dangerous these things could be. despite the fact that we were constantly being reassured by scientists how safe these things were. One has to wonder how reliable the information we are given now on chemicals and GM foods (for instance) really is.

[Kristen]

I got out of touch with my mate who crop sprayed commercially when he emigrated so am a bit behind on this stuff,interesting bit of research there Kristen,thanks for posting

Ta

Slightly goofy name as I think it is only one letter different from the previouos brand name, which was hazardous ... Ho!Hum!

Monsanto - Roundup Pro Biactive

"It is not a hazardous substance as defined by COSHH, when used in accordance with the label, and it does not carry a hazard symbol. In the environment, it provides up to 100 fold improvement in safety to some of the most sensitive animal species, when compared to older glyphosate formulations. "

Those are the manufacturers words though ...

[Alison]

Whatever you add to the land should be used with caution. I made the decision not to use any form of weed killer for several reasons. One of the key ones was a wish to remove any risks that may still remain from the chemicals, I'm also tight so didn't want to pay out but a further significant reason was the fact that they are not a final solution, although they may weaken, they won't totally remove my bind weed, horse tail or couch grass problems so I'd still need to either spray again or do the weeding I was planning anyway and I find that much preferable. I also find that excluding light and mulching very valuable tools but you do need to assess your soil and weed scenario and as I've said on other posts work out what is right for you after investigating the evidence and weighing up the options.


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[Kristen]

Whatever you add to the land should be used with caution. I made the decision not to use any form of weed killer for several reasons. One of the key ones was a wish to remove any risks that may still remain from the chemicals

I have an ongoing debate with myself along those lines ...

I have raised beds, with tanalised timber. My assumption is that tanalised timber is pronounced safe for humans on the basis of how they normally come into contact with it, and equally that treated wood in constant contact with moist soil and with vegetable roots in the immediate vicinity is outside the scope of any tests that might have been done and might prove to be a problem (in years to come) !!

So I lined the timber around my beds with Damp Proof Course Membrane (in truth to try to lengthen the life of the timber by preventing it being permanently in contact with damp soil ) ... but then I debated, with myself, whether I still had the same issue, but with the plasticisers in the DPM leaching into the soil / vegetables ...

I reached the point where I took the decision based on the time I had available to maintain and grow veg, and the possible risks.

We haven't grown main crop spuds for ages - cheap as chips (Sorry!!) at the Farm Gate, and the farmer has very good cold storage to keep them in great condition well into Winter. Mine were kept in a cupboard and sprouting several feet tall by XMas!

Then we had the wet summer, and I found out that the sack of spuds I was buying at the Farm Gate the following winter was imported,a s the UK harvest had been dire. A chance discussion with someone about how farmers dessicate the haulms of potato plants before harvest led me to a thought:

Time was when Gramoxone was used for that job in the UK. Its a type of weedkiller (a plant growth hormone I think). Anyway, however it works the net effect is that haulm dies off and dries out which makes mechanical harvest easier. Gramoxone has been banned in the EU for some time, and its on my personal list of "Not very nice chemicals" (not withstanding that as a youngster I bought it off the local farmer and used it, haphazardly, as a weed killer around my, then, garden)

EU farmers now use acid, I believe, to do that job, which seems reasonably innocuous to me. But outside the EU, in most of the rest of the world, Gramoxone is not banned . So chances are that the, imported, spuds I bought that Winter had been treated with Gramoxone.

So Mrs K and I had a further discussion about the "provenance" of the food we eat, and the fact that we ought to grow our own maincrop spuds too ...

I don't half waiver a lot on what I consider is acceptable, and what is not!!. For example: should I sow an Organic Variety with natural pest resistance? or does that just mean that the plant naturally makes its own Pyrethrum, or similar, which might be worse for me that a commercially grown plant treated with tiny amounts of modern insecticide?

The upshot for me is to grow regular varieties, usually picked for Best Flavour, and use no chemicals unless I absolutely have to, and as a consequence I suffer crop loss from disease when they happen (thankfully not very often).

But I use man-made fertilisers and locally-sourced manure (which probably has antibiotics and so on) in it ... all compromises ...

I'll shut up now!

[Alison]

I have an ongoing debate with myself along those lines ...

Years ago I knew nothing of these things and life was in many ways more simple as it's never ending, answer one question and you get ten more . Ignorance is bliss!

Seriously though you're you're right, you need to find a compromise that works for you and then try not to worry too much.


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[Samuel1988]

Cheers for your replies

Yes I think mulching is the way to go!

[Kristen]

Years ago I knew nothing of these things and life was in many ways more simple as it's never ending, answer one question and you get ten more . Ignorance is bliss!

So true ...

Seriously though you're you're right, you need to find a compromise that works for you and then try not to worry too much.

Now you've got me worrying about the fact that I am worrying about it!!!

[Bal]

Whilst researching nettle tea on the web, I read that if used neat instead of diluted it would make a good weed killer, but would linger in the ground for a bit. I am making nettle tea but without adding water. The liquid that will form should be diluted at a ratio of 1 to 20 as a fertiliser, but if used neat will be a weed killer. Need to do more research to see how long it will linger in the ground.

[Snadger]

Because we've had a mild winter we have huge stockpiles of rocksalt.

I have raised beds at the allotment and have tried all sorts on the paths. I tried carpets (Blew away, even after pegging) weed suppressant material covered with a woodchip mulch (Weeds love getting there roots into the membrane and they are nigh on impossible to get out.

This year I am experimenting with the rocksalt on the paths, in the hope that it won't 'creep'. Because the beds are raised this shouldn't be an issue. Up to now it is looking good no weeds on paths and crops seem to be thriving in beds
I shall carry on this season and see how it goes, but can't recommend it for other users in case it is detrimental in the long term?

Watch this space!

PS I'm only using a minimal ammount for spot treatment, not totally blitzing the paths!

PPS Rocksalt is an organic material I suppose.