Red Tape for the sake of Red Tape

[Bramble-Poultry]

After an "informative" chat with the local DEFRA guy, apparently i should register with DEFRA as a licenced commercial hatchery. I asked if it was to do with the sclae of my operation (100 birds etc) but he said no, it was to do with the fact that i sell hatching eggs, even if they are on eBay.

So i asked what the threshold of selling hatching eggs on eBay was before i needed to register - i was told 1 egg!

Apparently if you sell hatching eggs to the public, you must mark them not for consumption, mark on your flock number, method of production, date of laying, commercial hatchery number and presumed breed of hen on each egg - how small do i have to write on a bantam egg!

It also means that i would need to register as an egg - packing station, meaning that all my eggs need to be stamped on the shell with my originators mark.

I do not know of anyone selling eggs on eBay that does this, or even at organised poultry sales, so i think i might turn a blind eye. If i were to do all that DEFRA say to enable me to sell eggs i would be at such a financial disadvantage because of the financial outlay to comply with the regs that i would have to sell hatching eggs at £20 a half dozen minimum!

Has anyone else come across this stupidity or is it a new thing to help bring us in line with europe? (i.e give the european market an advantage over Britain)

I must admit, i do have to be careful as i do get inspected by DEFRA as i am on the Poultry Register, but the above seems to take the proverbial. One good thing to come out of this is that it will mean that with a egg packing number i can sell eggs to middle men like the butcher etc for sale on or at farmers markets - something i do want to tap into.

However, another interesting quirk of red tape - if i sell at a to the public at a farmers market i need to be registered, but if i sell to the public at a WI market i dont???

I am going off to the cider shed to see what solace can be had!

[RedThorn]

well here's hoping you don't dent your shed supplies too badly!

Do DEFRA have any suggestions as what to do with regards to printing on bantam eggs? Can it be as simple as a custom made rubber stamp? Not looked in this country, but sure you can get custom stamps as Companies used to make stamps with their logos on etc. and a separate one for the numbers etc?

Hoping that this would then help you comply but not cost an arm and a leg!

[RichmondHens]

It's a bit early for cider ...........isn't it?

How often do you get inspected Jennie? We are on the register too but so far have not been inspected. We only registered at the beginning of this year after moving to this place so maybe it's just a matter of time.

Interesting about the hatching eggs bit. I've sold hatching eggs too, but not on e Bay, just direct to customer at the door.

[Bramble-Poultry]

selling eggs (be it hatching or eating) direct at the door, or direct to the end consumer is unregulated and anyone can do it. involve a third party - like an auction house - then you need to be registered - according to the guys at DEFRA in Shrewsbury.

We only recieved a "courtesy call" from DEFRA as our local auction (Penkridge) now insist that anyone selling eggs (of any sort) are registered with DEFRA. Presubably to keep the tracability intact.

Following on from our conversation it would appear that anyone dealing in eggs has to be registered - an event unlikely to happen in my opinion.

Regarding stamping on eggs, you can contact specialist stamps from labelling companies - but you must use edible grade ink incase someone decides to eat the shells.??? Surely eating the shell will cause more potential harm than the ink??

DEFRA sent me a load of bumpf in the post yesterday which i am still trawling through. I think that there must be confusion somewhere at DEFRA as egg licencing used to be done by the local environmental health officer at the council, now its DEFRA and i think something has been lost in translation.

I cant see that the thousands of eggs sold on eBay have been done so illegally??

[Eco-Chic]

Did the <s>jobsworth</s>DEFRA chap happen to mention how much this essential license would cost you?

[Eco-Chic]

Bramble,

For once, eBay's stance "that they are just a venue" may be an advantage. If I buy from you, we are in a direct transaction and you, as the seller, will only pay fees to eBay for use of their 'platform'

Same way if you put a card in a newsagent, the newagent doesn't become a party to the trade.

[sarraceniac]

Oh dear. I don't usually look at this area because I have no chooks and no intention of getting any, but the magic words 'red tape' caught my eye. My own way of dealing with Govt. departmental idiocy is to send a long letter all couched in similar terms to the advice in red below on my signature and asking for an immediate reply. Not one uncivil servant has ever had the sense to write to me pointing out that I am just writing gobbledegook and would i please be explicit. They usually send me a form to tick boxes. In which case I tick every box I can see and return it. Usually, unless they are totally sure of their ground they give up and I don't hear again. This system is in the finest gardening tradition and is referred to as 'Taking the peas'. (Or similar).

Bit worried though. In summer I buy all my eating eggs from a lady at my local car boot. Definitely 100% free range, wonderful eggs with an actual taste, but not a sign of any writing on them, not even a little lion. Do you think she will be arrested and given 20 years? Boy it makes me mad and I'm never sure if it's Europe or our Cowboys that are doing it.

[Eco-Chic]

Sarraceniac, I believe our uncivil servants think it is obligatory to add conditions, regulations and complications to all and any Euro directives issued.

[moola]

I know of many people selling eggs to public for consumption and also for hatching either directly or through ebay. Not one has ever mentioned deathra regs! Some are registered as well. Poor you, now that you've brought this up with them they're certain to check you in future. I had a similar thing a few years back when I was toying with plans to make good some of the excesses from deer carcasses. I had'nt even filed anything with the local council bods etc, I literally just made a tentative enquiry and well, you'd not believe the number of follow up calls I had....

[Snadger]

Give the eggs to a relative or friend and let them put them on eBay for you..................problem solved!

[Bramble-Poultry]

it may come to that snadger!

i will find a work around, it will just take me a few days to digest the volume of information sent through the post!

[walldanzig]

Thats madness I have bouht eggs from ebay and the most I have ever seen is a pencil scribble something like LS for light sussex

[Bramble-Poultry]

my point exactly walldanzig

[Bramble-Poultry]

Righto, extracts from Egg Marketting Inspectorate Code of Practice 2004. (Source: http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/po...ct/emicode.pdf)


6 - Businesses required to apply for registration
If you run any of the following businesses you are required to apply to us for
registration – application forms are available on-line on the Defra website or through
any of the Egg Marketing Inspectorate offices as stated immediately above.
(a) Producers of eggs registration is required for:
- all producers of eggs intended for sale as Class ‘A’, irrespective of how many hens
they keep (in simple terms, all sales to retail, wholesale, catering or through any
other third party must be Class ‘A’ eggs).
- and all producers with more than 350 hens, irrespective of how the eggs are sold.
- and from 1st July 2005 - all those selling their own eggs on local public markets.
• The only producers that will not need to be registered at all are those
with less than 350 hens and who also sell all their own eggs direct to
individual consumers at their farm gate or by local door-to-door rounds.
(b) Egg Packing Stations registration is required for:
- those who grade and sell hen eggs to other businesses (i.e. that must be Class ‘A’
eggs) and/or sell direct to consumers where EC quality or weight grades are used.
(c) Collectors registration is required for:
- those who buy and collect ungraded hen eggs from producers and deliver and sell
to packing stations, approved processors (see 7(c) below) or the non-food industry
(d) Hatcheries registration is required for:
- those, other than the very smallest, (with a capacity of less than 1000 eggs in
incubation) who incubate and hatch hen, duck, turkey, goose and guinea fowl eggs.
(e) Breeders/Primary Breeders registration is required for:
- those breeding farms that produce eggs from the above species to supply to
hatcheries. The only exception being breeders with less than 100 birds in total.

So the only one that counts so far for me is item (E) as i have over 100 birds. So, i do need to register

Looks like as long as you have less than 100 birds in total on your premises then you are in the clear. I tried to argue that not all 100 were used for breeding, some were growers and some were layers of eating not breeding, but the literal definition is taken. Over 100+ = registration

[its hilly]

The more of these stupid rules they try to enforce the more it puts people off registering, defeating the object from their point of view.And as they let 100s of people sell from the gate without ever interfering then what is the point of picking on a seller who's taken the time and trouble to register and do things right
Eco's got a point though..e-bay say the sale contract is between buyer and seller, they simply monitor and regulate. So if the sale is buyer to seller then thats got to be direct...from gate
And I've never (crosses fingers) heard of DEFRA interfering in e-bay egg sales....yet..