Red Tape for the sake of Red Tape

[Eco-Chic]

That's an hour or two of your life you'll never get back Bramble

[sarraceniac]

Oh dear. I don't usually look at this area because I have no chooks and no intention of getting any,

Thank God, in modern UK.

[Bramble-Poultry]

oh it gets better/ once i register (as i must legally do so) i have to mark all hatching eggs in one of two prescribed way:

Eggs placed in an incubator must be marked individually in one of two ways as follows:
Method 1
requires the eggs to be marked at the producer establishment, the mark is that producer establishment’s EC registration number, the number must be printed in an indelible black ink, and the characters must be at least 2mm high and 1mm wide.
Method 2
requires the eggs to be marked before they are placed in an incubator, the mark must be clearly visible, it must be printed in a indelible black ink and it must have an area of at least 10mm2. Marking may therefore be done at the producer establishment or the hatchery. Neither the shape of this mark nor its maximum size is specified in the UK

Oh, and here goes any chance of putting a clear egg in the wheelie bin

All eggs removed from incubators (including clears) are classified as “industrial eggs” which means that they must not be used for human consumption. The length of time that an egg has been in the incubator is not relevant; any egg which is removed from an incubator for whatever reason is covered. In consequence, hatcheries are also forbidden from sending such incubated eggs to the food industry.

Industrial waste no less!

And when i post them to someone on eBay

Packages of hatching eggs must be perfectly clean. They must contain exclusively eggs of the same species, of the same category and the same type of poultry, coming from the same registered establishment. The conditions specified for transporting poultry chicks are that the packages must contain chicks of the same species, category and type of poultry, produced by the same hatchery.
Packages of hatching eggs must bear the words “eggs for hatching” in at least one Community language. Packs and Containers used to move eggs, intended for incubation and marked (or to be marked) in accordance with Method (2) above to the hatchery must be marked with the producer establishment’s registration number. Packages of poultry chicks must bear at least the registration number of the hatchery which produced them.

The marking on all packages of hatching eggs and poultry chicks must be clear and legible in indelible black ink in characters of at least 20mm high and 10mm wide with outlines drawn 1mm thick.

Each consignment of hatching eggs or chicks leaving a registered establishment must be accompanied by a document written in at least one Community language, showing at least the following details:
the name or business name and address of the establishment and it’s (a) distinguishing number;
it’s registration number; (b)
the number of hatching eggs or chicks sent, classified by species, category (c) and type of poultry;
the date of despatch; (d)
the name and address of the consignee.

And just incase i have a moment or two spare time, i must keep accurate records of all birds that hatch out (fair enough) the number of clear eggs, how many i intend to use from the hatch (erm all of them??) and records of anyone (name address holding number etc) of anyone who buys eggs from me, and ideally (although not compulsory) their hatching statistics too.

And then i must complete a monthly return to DEFRA with all this information for their records

And there's me thinking that the government was trying to get farming and agriculture back off its knees into the proud tradition it once was, when all along it was the government kicking the shins of the farmer in the first place!

Do you ever feel that its ever worth it?

[RichmondHens]

So if I carry on doing direct to customer sales, be it eating eggs or hatching eggs I'm OK, I think?

[Bramble-Poultry]

sally

as far as i can tell, as long as you have less than 100 hens you can sell direct without registration. Be you selling hatching or eating eggs - so you are in the clear - as are most on this forum i would suggest.

between 100 and 350 hens you must register your flock with the Egg Marketting Inspectorate to get a producer number, and then you can sell to anyone you like, over 350+ hens you must not only register with the EMI but you must also test your birds for salmonella etc at set intervals, 15 weeks, 30 weeks and 45 weeks i thinnk, and then replace all your stock before they enter their second laying phase, or, otherwise carry out futher tests and scrutinies as advised by the vet.

Although you are allowed to keep a commercial flock past 12 months, it appears to be frowned upon by DEFRA as an old flock will tend to pick up more illnesses that could enter the food chain - alledgedly

so yes, keep under 100 hens and sell from your door and no one be the wiser.

This doesnt detract from the fact that once you have 50 birds on your premises - even if they are only there for a day, or are all indoors as day old chicks - you must register with the GB Poultry Register by law.

The benefit being that if you are on the GB register, you get all the flu jabs free and a priority as they dont want poultry "workers" passing flu on to chickens that might carry avian flu and then allow the two flu virii to mutate into a super flu bug!

[RichmondHens]

Thanks Jennie - I am already on the register, but do not intend to have more than 100 (current level 60 + and hopefully not rising above this).

[Bramble-Poultry]

going back to the point of eco-chic and Hilly about eBay being just a "facilitator" in these dealings, it is no different than a traditional auction at poultry sales. The auctioneer facilitates the sale from person A to person B, taking a selling commission in th eprocess. eBay does exactly the same as they host the auction and deduct a sellers fee. Therefore, technically they are one and the same - however - traditional auctions houses are listed as one of the places you must be registered to sell at!

crazy. if only the left hand could talkto the right!

[Hilary B]

Righto, extracts from Egg Marketting Inspectorate Code of Practice 2004. (Source: http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/po...ct/emicode.pdf)


6 - Businesses required to apply for registration
If you run any of the following businesses you are required to apply to us for
registration – application forms are available on-line on the Defra website or through
any of the Egg Marketing Inspectorate offices as stated immediately above.
(a) Producers of eggs registration is required for:
- all producers of eggs intended for sale as Class ‘A’, irrespective of how many hens
they keep (in simple terms, all sales to retail, wholesale, catering or through any
other third party must be Class ‘A’ eggs).
- and all producers with more than 350 hens, irrespective of how the eggs are sold.
- and from 1st July 2005 - all those selling their own eggs on local public markets.
• The only producers that will not need to be registered at all are those
with less than 350 hens and who also sell all their own eggs direct to
individual consumers at their farm gate or by local door-to-door rounds.
(b) Egg Packing Stations registration is required for:
- those who grade and sell hen eggs to other businesses (i.e. that must be Class ‘A’
eggs) and/or sell direct to consumers where EC quality or weight grades are used.
(c) Collectors registration is required for:
- those who buy and collect ungraded hen eggs from producers and deliver and sell
to packing stations, approved processors (see 7(c) below) or the non-food industry
(d) Hatcheries registration is required for:
- those, other than the very smallest, (with a capacity of less than 1000 eggs in
incubation) who incubate and hatch hen, duck, turkey, goose and guinea fowl eggs.
(e) Breeders/Primary Breeders registration is required for:
- those breeding farms that produce eggs from the above species to supply to
hatcheries. The only exception being breeders with less than 100 birds in total.

So the only one that counts so far for me is item (E) as i have over 100 birds. So, i do need to register

Looks like as long as you have less than 100 birds in total on your premises then you are in the clear. I tried to argue that not all 100 were used for breeding, some were growers and some were layers of eating not breeding, but the literal definition is taken. Over 100+ = registration

Do you sell eggs to 'hatcheries' or just to members of the public who happen to put them under broody hens?

[Bramble-Poultry]

i see where you are going with this hilary, and i asked the question, but the guy at EMI stated that over 100 birds and raising hatching eggs was good enough for him. I do think though that if they want to be literal on one aspect of the legislation, then they need to be literal on all legislation.

i have asked for them to reconsider, and they will be having words with their supervisor....................

[Eco-Chic]

How much info can be printed on quail eggs, I wonder?

I hope it transpires that this chap has misinterpreted the legislation.

[Bramble-Poultry]

i think he has. i have been reading around the subject as this will have a major impact on where i want to take this poultry breeding idea next year if i have to start having regular inspections, stamping eggs, egg washing areas, specialist egg packing stations etc.

will make it uneconomic. Perhaps thats why people like wernlas charge £39 for a chicken. perhaps its not because they are exploiting us, perhaps thats the minimum they can charge to amke a quid profit if they are obeying all the rules??

[Suechooks]

. Perhaps thats why people like wernlas charge £39 for a chicken. perhaps its not because they are exploiting us, perhaps thats the minimum they can charge to amke a quid profit if they are obeying all the rules??

As Wernlas hatch 15000 a year they probably spend most of it on ink!

[Bramble-Poultry]

if he is hatching 15000 per year, and selling at an average (oh lets be conservative) of £30 each, then he is making somewhere around £450k per year. deduct feed and wages etc and he is probably looking at a profit of around £200k. also add in the admission he charges. so, if we say that he is making at least 200k per year, why are his wooden runs so tatty??? quite a few need repairs?

not that i am jealous, no, i am not bothered about the income, but what i would give for the land and all them chooks!!

[Suechooks]

if he is hatching 15000 per year, and selling at an average (oh lets be conservative) of £30 each, then he is making somewhere around £450k per year. deduct feed and wages etc and he is probably looking at a profit of around £200k. also add in the admission he charges. so, if we say that he is making at least 200k per year, why are his wooden runs so tatty??? quite a few need repairs?

not that i am jealous, no, i am not bothered about the income, but what i would give for the land and all them chooks!!

Yes it is a fab place! I'm trying to decide whether to have another visit! I'll need to leave my credit card at home though! I just want to look at the different breeds before I decide what to try and hatch! Yes really........just a little look.......just for half an hour............or so...........no boxes in the car.................OH is off next week so maybe a drive out?...........NO NO NO NO NO NO............

[HayleyB]

It's a point of definition, I would say you are not selling to Hatcheries as defined in (d) which is a specification of a breeder needing to register as defined in (e). This is because you are selling to individuals on ebay who are not Hatcheries with the capacity required for (d) as defined.

Bladdy EU, bringer of all tape red, and the stoopid suits over here that take as red anything the EU says.....