What to do?

[Scarlet]

On what grounds other than price ? chemically it will be much the same & I don't actually find it any rougher ?

Intriged as to why you think it differs

I agree with Flummery - the unfiltered version which is supplied for horses has the 'mother' in it ( brown stringy stuff!!) which contains all the nutriets and benefits.

[Bramble-Poultry]

free range - technically it is 1m square per bird in the runb, and 9" of perch space in the house. that is DEFRA's take on it. I am sure that other "grapes" exceed this.

As for us, we have around 200 assorted poultry at the moment, from chickens and turkeys, through to guinea fowl and peacock, they are allowed to roost in purpose made housing or in one of the barns. They have access to the whole farm during the day (approx 400 acres) although they all seem to loiter around the kitchen door!

[Mell]

I agree with Flummery - the unfiltered version which is supplied for horses has the 'mother' in it ( brown stringy stuff!!) which contains all the nutriets and benefits.

It contains cellulose & acetic acid bacteria, (collectivly the mother) this can also be present in shop vinegars, and the fact it can and does form in shop bought shows that the bacteria are generally still there.

What we are actually trying to avoid is dead cultures, ie vinegars that may have been pastueurised (good to avoid for a number of reasons)

People get very excited about the mother, but it is the living vinegar which is important. Nasty bits of slimy cellulose are not the good bits. The good bacteria is. Slimey cellulose can allow bad bacteria to spoil a good vinegar

Introducing clean bacteria tends to make a better vinegar than using a mother.

As I mentioned many shop bought vinegars are living & will eventually produce a mother & can be used as started so if buying shop bough avoid pasteurised if possible.

I'd still buy it from my feed store, but that is mainly coz my old horse (38) has it twice a day in quantity

[Mell]

free range As for us, we have around 200 assorted poultry at the moment, from chickens and turkeys, through to guinea fowl and peacock, they are allowed to roost in purpose made housing or in one of the barns. They have access to the whole farm during the day (approx 400 acres) although they all seem to loiter around the kitchen door!

Evenm the peafowl & Guinea fowl ? I've heard they often take off.

Do you ever have excess peahens, my poor Kevin needs a wife !

[Scarlet]

It contains cellulose & acetic acid bacteria, (collectivly the mother) this can also be present in shop vinegars, and the fact it can and does form in shop bought shows that the bacteria are generally still there.

What we are actually trying to avoid is dead cultures, ie vinegars that may have been pastueurised (good to avoid for a number of reasons)

People get very excited about the mother, but it is the living vinegar which is important. Nasty bits of slimy cellulose are not the good bits. The good bacteria is. Slimey cellulose can allow bad bacteria to spoil a good vinegar

Introducing clean bacteria tends to make a better vinegar than using a mother.

As I mentioned many shop bought vinegars are living & will eventually produce a mother & can be used as started so if buying shop bough avoid pasteurised if possible.

I'd still buy it from my feed store, but that is mainly coz my old horse (38) has it twice a day in quantity

Beneficial bacteria and enzymes are killed during the filtering process - the one ones that you find on the supermarket shelf are always the 'clear, filtered version'.
The mother can grow in shop bought vinegars but until it does it won't have all the goodness in it that can be obtained from the raw unfiltered ACV which can be purchased from your farm store at a much cheaper price.

[Bramble-Poultry]

we dont have any spare peahens at the moment, our hens are less than two years old and as such dont lay fertile eggs yet. as soon as we get a successful hatch i will let you all know!

Our peacock can often be seen sat on our decking by the front door waiting for his daily bread rations! the guinea fowl all seem to wander all day, yet come in towards evening when the corn is fed to the hens and fill up on that, then roost in the barn with the chooks!

attached is a picture of Paul Peacock (named after a friend of ours) sat on one of our rearing pens by the barn

[Mell]

Beneficial bacteria and enzymes are killed during the filtering process - the one ones that you find on the supermarket shelf are always the 'clear, filtered version'.
The mother can grow in shop bought vinegars but until it does it won't have all the goodness in it that can be obtained from the raw unfiltered ACV which can be purchased from your farm store at a much cheaper price.

Sorry that is a contradiction, the mother can't grow in shop bought if as you suggest the filtering kills the "Beneficial bacteria and enzymes "

It comes down how the vinegar has been filtered, even with membrane technology the figs quoted as "essentially all" which tends to mean not 100%

Whilst I'll happily accept some store bought won't be as good as those designed for health, it isn't as simple as shop bought bad, animal feed good. I've also said I'd tend to buy livestock ones, but I'd have no hesitation using shop bought ones (and often have if I've only had that to hand) Not sure what quantities its sold in either I know I buy 5 litres at a time which seems ott for a few hens perhaps ?

Organic, live cider vinegar is almost certainly better than most, but this can be got from health food shops and some other shops. Any choice shop or livestock will contain vitamins, minerals, amino acids and health promoting compounds. It will be rich in phosphorus, calcium, sodium, potassium, iron, magnesium, chlorine, and b-vitamins . This is good stuff without the additional effects of pectin, malic acid and the bacterium found in the best.

One important use is lowering the gut pH, this creats an inhospitable environment for pathogens . This pH effect will happen regardless of whether acetic acid bacteria is present or not, as will the mineral & vitamin boost.

[Mell]

we dont have any spare peahens at the moment, our hens are less than two years old and as such dont lay fertile eggs yet. as soon as we get a successful hatch i will let you all know!

I hatched Kevin & two girls but one girl died young the other Foxy got. Will you let yours sit ? If doing in an incubator I found them a real pain, need mega high humidity

[Bramble-Poultry]

well the one girl tried sitting this year, and as they are free spirits on the farm we left her to it. nothing hatched so i can only assume that they werent fertile. maybe this year - fingers crossed

[Nicos]

BP!!!...didn't realise you have a peacock too!!!...ours is called Albert

...looks like we have 3 peacocks on the Vine -including Mell's Kevin!

[Bramble-Poultry]

Nicos - we have allsorts here now we have moved to wales. the list is approx:-
Chickens
Pekins - various colours
Barbu D'uccle
Barbu D'Anvers
Light Sussex
Maran
Indian Game
Dorking
Marsh Daisy
Orpington
Chocolate Orpington
Ex-batts
Wyandotte
Silkie
Sablepoots
Ducks
Runner Ducks
Khaki Campbells
Aylesbury
Geese
soon to have (once snow clears)
Brecon Geese
Norfolk Geese
Peafowl & Pheasants
Peacock
Standard Guinea Fowl
Royal Purple Guinea Fowl
Turkeys
Slate
Bourbon Red
Norfolk Black
Crollwitzer
Bronze
Mammals
Rabbits - lionhead, lop, dwarf
Saddleback Pigs
Japanese Shiba Inu
Working Collie
Mule Ewes
Texel Rams
Ponies
Llamas

Its a never ending job!

[Hilary B]

Surely the filtration process must remove MOST of whatever beneficial bacteria there might be? Maybe it it often removes all of them, but occasionally enough is left to start off the process again?
I'm not by any means a cider-vinegar expert, but I do know a bit of chemistry, biology etc, and applying THAT knowledge suggests that the 'food quality' stuff will normally have just about all bacterial activity removed.
The question arises, why CIDER vinegar? The only sensible answer is that the source of the useful ingredient is the apples, and it seems credible that the removal of the natural cellulose (the same stuff that counts as 'fibre' when you eat an apple) would be less than helpful.

[Mell]

Surely the filtration process must remove MOST of whatever beneficial bacteria there might be? Maybe it it often removes all of them, but occasionally enough is left to start off the process again?
I'm not by any means a cider-vinegar expert, but I do know a bit of chemistry, biology etc, and applying THAT knowledge suggests that the 'food quality' stuff will normally have just about all bacterial activity removed.
The question arises, why CIDER vinegar? The only sensible answer is that the source of the useful ingredient is the apples, and it seems credible that the removal of the natural cellulose (the same stuff that counts as 'fibre' when you eat an apple) would be less than helpful.

Depends on the filtration used and the size of the bacteria I know it remove vinegar eels (a worm really) but in the spec sheets I read, for various filter mediums, there was no mention of it removing or not removing bacteria ! It is occasionally, I stock pile cider vinegar (from shops) for when I have time to use it & I've always had a mother form.

Food stuff almost always has bacteria in its just at a low enough level for whatever the specific require.

I don't think that is the "only" sensible answer by any stretch at best it is one of many hypothetical suggestions You seem to be saying an apple would do the same if not better ? As it has cellulose ? Humans (who also benefit from cider vinegar) can't digest cellulose. Remember the alpha & beta glucose & how one goes to startch (digestible) and the other to cellulose (*indigestable)

If it was simply apple juice or cider would do, so one might assume the vinegar bit is pretty significant. I have a great deal of cider & apple juice home made !

[Hilary B]

Depends on the filtration used and the size of the bacteria I know it remove vinegar eels (a worm really) but in the spec sheets I read, for various filter mediums, there was no mention of it removing or not removing bacteria ! It is occasionally, I stock pile cider vinegar (from shops) for when I have time to use it & I've always had a mother form.

Food stuff almost always has bacteria in its just at a low enough level for whatever the specific require.

I don't think that is the "only" sensible answer by any stretch at best it is one of many hypothetical suggestions You seem to be saying an apple would do the same if not better ? As it has cellulose ? Humans (who also benefit from cider vinegar) can't digest cellulose. Remember the alpha & beta glucose & how one goes to startch (digestible) and the other to cellulose (*indigestable)

If it was simply apple juice or cider would do, so one might assume the vinegar bit is pretty significant. I have a great deal of cider & apple juice home made !

I didn't say the apple contained the vital element as such. I was assuming that there are chemicals produced when apples end up as vinegar that are absent when vinegar is made from other alcoholic forms. Alternatively it may be that the useful substance IS present in the apple juice, but combined with other substances that are either of dubious value for livestock, or that interact with the vital one to prevent it working, sugar and/or alcohol are candidates for either possibility.
I certainly was not suggesting for one moment that the cellulose was the vital ingredient (it has its uses, but probably not here) merely responding to the implication that it was positively undesirable, which quite clearly is not necessarily the case, or the unpurified version would not be useful at all.

[Mell]

> I was assuming that there are chemicals produced when apples end up as vinegar that are absent when vinegar is made from other alcoholic forms.

I think that is likely, did you see the list of Vitamins & minerals I listed before ?

Although that really begs the question how variable are cider vinegar ingredients, as apples are highly variable depending on cultivar, soil , treatments etc.

>Alternatively it may be that the useful substance IS present in the apple juice, but combined with other substances that are either of dubious value for livestock, or that interact with the vital one to prevent it working, sugar and/or alcohol are candidates for either possibility.

part of the reason to use of vinegar might be its ability to be kept for extended periods, and therefore as folk medicine more useful. I'm not a great fan of pasturization in relation to distruction of nutritional value.

>I certainly was not suggesting for one moment that the cellulose was the vital ingredient (it has its uses, but probably not here) merely responding to the implication that it was positively undesirable, which quite clearly is not necessarily the case, or the unpurified version would not be useful at all.

the main reason given for not having it is one of taste rather than function, it can give a less satisfactory taste, in mine & others opinion.

I think I mentioned the acid value of it previously and I know of several ideas to change the pH of the body for health reasons. But that begs your interesting question as why cider vinegar over other vinegars.

Historically vinegar has been used for all sorts of thing it was poured in wounds, for example, the list is pretty endless if one looks at old medical texts. In most cases the type would depend on the locally convinient alcohol producing substance. I think cider vinegar may be more a produce of a cheaper (historically) , nice tasting vinegar, rather than necessarily speciffically more effective.