Some questions about table birds, and chicks

[chris]

I'm coming around to the idea of rearing some birds for the table. Not yet, but perhaps within a year or so. I'm planning to look for local courses as the whole idea really appeals to me. We've some other "things" to get out of the way first too - and I need to sort where they'd be out before this would even come into plan.

I've a couple of questions floating around my head. I currently have 3 layers. I'm aware that there is growers & layers pellets. For those of you who have both types of bird (for meat and others for eggs) do you either keep them completely separate, or does it not matter so much if they eat a bit of one and another's food? Reason being is, I've a garden that I let my current ones free range around, I'd also like to do the same to some growers *if* we ever did this.

Ideally I'd like to use the new run / coop I'm building to house both sets - but the issue of the feeding strikes me as a problem. Please note I'd only be doing this on a small scale, as we're not big meat eaters (my wife is mainly a 'veggie' in sorts - I've slowly convinced her to eat decent, organic meat). I was thinking of 3 meat birds as an absolute maximum, at any one time.

I guess I could kill two birds with one stone (hoho) by going for a dual purpose bird, and getting eggs too, but that sort of decision is so far down the line. Strictly speaking, are layers pelleters -> layers and growers->growers strictly required? What other subsititues would be needed if there's such a thing as a mid-way feed?

Next up, unrelated in most aspects, but if people hatch eggs, and for whatever reason they needed to be got rid of (assuming no other avenues available) - how would you dispatch a chick? Jjust curious, not planning to go on a chick killing crusade! The thing that sticks in my mind from that Jamie Oliver show was how those male chicks were gassed when he was doing his battery egg/meat campaign.. But without that sort of equipment that would not be possible.

Then.. my next question is if you have a broody and hatched eggs.. would the mother hen eat crumb? If no crumb was availlable, how would the chicks eat - do the mother hens break the food up? How would they work in the wild? I dont think a chick could manage a whole worm, for example.

[Newtothis]

Wow - and I thought I was asking loads of questions!
I haven't even thought of these Chris.
I'll watch this thread with interest.

David

[RichmondHens]

To answer your questions in no particular order:

1. Feed - A broody hen will eat chick crumb. If none available she will break up anything she finds till it is small enough for the chicks to eat. Bear in mind though that if you are raising the chicks within in a small coop or ark (recommended to prevent chicks being taken by predators - crows and magpies can decimate a hatch in minutes if free ranging, not to mention cats etc) then as the broody is restricted in her foraging a fully formulated feed ie chick crumb is recommended. This has the right balance of vits and mins for growing babies and can be fed for up to 5 weeks when you can then move them onto grower pellet (I often start mine a bit younger 3 - 4 weeks, phasing it in gradually).

2. Grower pellet is the recommended feed for raising from 5 weeks through to despatch. You can get medicated (with anti coccidiosis drugs in) or plain. If you are not raising intensively it is not really necessary to use one with the medication in but some people do "to be on the safe side" although I don't. If chicks are raised by a broody they get gradual exposure to the coccidia and develop immunity that way. The feed does the same job so perhaps is more useful for incubator/heat lamp raised chicks but ultimately high standards of hygiene combined with always running the chicks on clean ground is the best way of prevention. I have mine in broody coops on grass areas not used by other chickens with the coops being moved onto a fresh patch every couple of days. Another reason for keeping growing stock separate from laying is that as the boys mature they start to become interested in the girls. This is when you need to get the girls away and keep the boys as far as is practical from them so they put their energy into making weight and not chasing the girls. Growing cocks kept with their sisters will eventually start fighting as they mature and are a lot harder to manage than if separate. I generally separate mine at about the 3- 4 month mark, depending on behaviour.

3. Laying hens should not eat grower pellet containing medication therefore if you do decide to use this type of feed the growers and layers must remain separate. In any case even if you use plain pellet I don't really recommend youngsters using the same ground as mature birds as they do need to develop their immunity to bugs gradually and you get the issue with cocks chasing hens as mentioned above.

4. Type of bird - This is really up to you. If you decide to raise dual purpose from eggs and maybe keep the females for eggs (or sell them) and grow on the cocks for meat then something like a Light Sussex would serve that purpose very well. If you want purely meat birds of either sex then you could just buy in day olds of a commercial type such as Sasso, Ross Cobb, Hubbard etc. These grow on quickly, not as fast as when intensively kept, but still a lot faster than the traditional breeds which take a good 6 months to mature to table weight.

5. Should you need for whatever reason to kill a chick a sharp sudden pressure on the neck against a hard surface to break it is pretty instantaneous. It's not for the squeamish though - be warned. I don't get emotional about a fully mature bird being "done" but a little cute fluffy chick is quite another matter. If in doubt get someone experienced to do it.

[chris]

Thanks for your detailed reply, RH. Perhaps it'll be best as you say to keep them separate - maybe when I get an allotment if it's allowed they can go up there

Going onto your point about old ground and new birds - if you wanted to bridge the gap of a bird coming out of lay with a pullet then does the same principle apply? Is it better to rest the ground once the others are gone first?

[RichmondHens]

If you are introducing new pullets to existing older hens then it is not so vital that they all go onto fresh ground. By the time a hen reaches POL - officially from 18 weeks - then they should have developed enough immunity to be able to mix freely with the other hens. You don't need to get rid of your old hens before getting new ones.

Most people (including myself) operate a "rolling stock" method where each year a few new pullets are raised to take over from older hens who are not laying quite so well. Depending on how I feel about the older hens, they either get despatched for the pot or left to enjoy retirement. Oh I hear you say, retire them all, but in reality this is not always practical if the hen houses are already full to capacity. Hence there is always a difficult decision to be made at the end of each laying season when the older hens get assessed.

[chris]

Each laying season, being each year? That rolling stock method was what I had in mind albeit on a small 'back garden' scale

Do you sell the eggs / meat then? How many birds do you have out of interest?

[RichmondHens]

Yes a laying season is from about now through to September.

I sell eggs. I keep breeds that lay different coloured eggs so I can produce boxes containing all colours of egg, eg blue, white, tinted, brown. I don't sell meat, just produce enough for family and friends.

I keep about 50 or so birds at any one time. The number fluctuates as hatches arrive and meat birds depart. Total number of hens at this moment is 13 bantam hens and 25 large fowl hens (several different breeds). Also have the stud cocks and still a few growing cocks left, due for despatch end January.

[Bramble-Poultry]

we have experimented with traditional breeds for meat, but we find them quite slow growing, but then again, there are some quarters that appreciate the fact that the birds are slown grown and pay accordingly.

We are going to have a go at rearing some Ross Cobb chicks this month. They are famed for very fast growth rates and the inability not to be able to walk after a few weeks, but we intend to gorw them a bit slower. we have calculated the growth rates and feed inputs and reckon that including the cost of the feed, purchase of the chicks and heating we can rear around 25 chicks to slaughter weight for around £3.50 each.

We hope by not intensively rearing them in sheds, allowing them space to move around that they will build proper muscle rather than distorted breast which will stop them walking.

we are trying this first for our own uses, before we go to the hassle of rearing for sale to the public as then we have to register with the local authority as a meat supplier etc and its all too much red tape if it doesnt work out!

[Hilary B]

Bramble, have you considered keeping back the healthiest hen chicks from the Ross Cobb type, and seeing if they will lay a few fertile eggs to something like a RIR, Light Sussex or (probably better) Indian Game cockerel? It seems to me an experiment worth the trying (on a small scale), for a decent compromise between the extremes...... I would certainly pay a decent price for the sort of meat I imagine that might produce.

[Suechooks]

Bramble, have you considered keeping back the healthiest hen chicks from the Ross Cobb type, and seeing if they will lay a few fertile eggs to something like a RIR, Light Sussex or (probably better) Indian Game cockerel? It seems to me an experiment worth the trying (on a small scale), for a decent compromise between the extremes...... I would certainly pay a decent price for the sort of meat I imagine that might produce.

A friend of mine did just that. They kept back 3 or 4 of the females and they did go on to lay but most died fairly young of heart attacks. Even given free range they never ventured far from the food source. I think one went on to brood and hatch some eggs though.

[Hilary B]

I wouldn't expect a Ross hen to brood effectively (they might, but as you say, they tend not to live long) but eggs to be hatched by a reliable bantie, or in the incubator, maybe a way of starting a new 'welfare meat' breed?

[Bramble-Poultry]

Strange that you should suggest that, but thats exactly what Jennie said to me today whilst we were out collecting more birds. she said if we were to keep the hen chicks on chick crumb for and extra week, and grower pellet for a week or so less, switch to layers ASAP, then hopefully that "calorie controlled" diet would perhaps carry them through to lay. She suggested putting them to our Dorking Cockerel.

I might give it a go and let you all know how we get on. I have a friend who, like me, also writes for magazines etc, and in one of their articles they mention raising Cobbs and they managed to keep a cockerel back until he was 32 weeks old, and he weighed in at 17.5lbs! an absolute monster they tried to keep him back for breeding but unfortunately he wouldnt come up to speed so they ended up having him for Christmas instead of a turkey!

[Hilary B]

Strange that you should suggest that, but thats exactly what Jennie said to me today whilst we were out collecting more birds. she said if we were to keep the hen chicks on chick crumb for and extra week, and grower pellet for a week or so less, switch to layers ASAP, then hopefully that "calorie controlled" diet would perhaps carry them through to lay. She suggested putting them to our Dorking Cockerel.

I might give it a go and let you all know how we get on. I have a friend who, like me, also writes for magazines etc, and in one of their articles they mention raising Cobbs and they managed to keep a cockerel back until he was 32 weeks old, and he weighed in at 17.5lbs! an absolute monster they tried to keep him back for breeding but unfortunately he wouldnt come up to speed so they ended up having him for Christmas instead of a turkey!

Yes I suspected a Ross cockerel might not be 'capable', (and if he was, he might be too heavy for the girls), hence suggesting the other way cross....
Ross first cross cockerel might be good on any of the 'can produce meat but better as layers' breeds, giving a 1/4 Ross hatch, which could be quite effective!