Off to the vet again I go

[its hilly]

Just a couple of thoughts from here.
Firstly you are being too hard on yourself you know. Hens are very robust creatures when healthy..but they frequently hide illness till it's too late to help. And when they go through a moult they are at their lowest ebb, so that is a time that things can go very suddenly wrong.
Secondly breathing problems seem to come on fast and severe. No matter how fast you spot them it can be too late, no matter what treatment they get. M-i-l had problems with her little Dutch banties earlier this year, breathing again. She went straight to the vet and was prescribed Baytril, again for all her chooks (only four) but still lost two. And they are cared for to the highest standards.
Thirdly. I had a run in with the dreaded mycroplasma last year. From advice on here I took one to the vet and was prescribed Tylan. She had heavy breathing, and a swollen (slightly) face. But the most distinctive feature was her smell, she didn't just smell of chicken, but had a rank, cat pee x fox muck smell. Strong enough to smell outside even. My vet said it is a clear indicator of mycro. The dose was daily for three days in fresh each day water. And it was for all my chooks, not just ones showing symptoms. Sadly I did loose some, but some healthy looking ones died and some pretty sick looking ones survived.
Dont know if that will help, but I hope it will at least convince you that you are doing your best.

[angelat]

hi, i am so sorry to hear of your loss, i really feel for you. i was reading the previous posts before you lost your hen and as i was reading them i was thinking what a caring person you are and a great chicken keeper. you gave the utmost care and love to your dear hen and done everything that you possibly could to try to save her. i froze when i read your post that you had lost her. what a wonderful life she had with you though. you done everything and more than you could. take care x

[VirginVegGrower]

I still feel I failed her. Both Mr VVG and I have wept again tonight. I have wept on and off all day but there is a creeping acceptance now that it's happened and I have to do my utmost for Sage and Eloise. I think we all on here are creature carers but I feel and have always felt that when you hand your money over for bird or animal you are making a commitment to the life of that creature. We were so desperate not to let Madeline go the same way as Rosemary. Rosie went very quickly and without us seeing signs. I noticed Madeline a day later paling in her comb and wattles - same as Rosemary's did. She went straight to vet too. I place my trust in the vets but still wrangle with the decision on Baytril when I see on websites that Tylan is best - but I didn't know that then. Do now! On the upside I am handling the girls every day for weight monitoring and to listen to their air sacs - never knew birds came with extra lung capacity - do now! I saw pale comb as sign of moulting/egg lay cessation, however I now look at all the vital signs. I can't believe how unbelievably speedy a hen will go from scratching happily to standing hunched. I know we couldn't have got them to the vet any quicker but am much more vigilant now on looking at THEM every day and not just their antics.
I always wanted hens for years, but never realised both of us would love them so much, resulting in hurting this hard.
To It's Hilly - I noticed a very definite smell to Madds on her last evening but it smelt almost sweet poop smell is the best way to describe it. But then I'm strange and like the smell of horse poop which I describe as having a sweet aroma too. It was a very pronounce odour and I did notice it, but only in the last 24 hours.
Madeline and Rosemary are now in their favourite dust bath ring of flowers and I intend to get a slate piece etched. Best of friends in life and now together forever in the garden. Just wish they'd had a lot longer.

[nellie-m]

Firstly you are being too hard on yourself you know.

Yes VVG, that's what I think, too.
You really did all you could do - if the vets didn't know, how could you know better?

Really, a PM could have given you a little bit of relief and taken away that guilty feeling. Okay, the fact that two died within such a short time might seem to indicate some sort of infection, but Madeline only developed her breathing problems shortly before she died - just like weakened old people in hospitals get pneumonia and die. It's the weakness that makes it possible for the bacteria (or, in her case perhaps mycoplasma) to multiply. Madeline may have suffered from some completely different condition - even one that no treatment could have overcome, and the infection of her respiratory tract, if there was one, was only secondary.

A very common thing in hens is peritonitis. Not very many that get it survive it. Sometimes they overcome it, but die some time later from its chronic effects. I had one big black hybrid hen, a stupid little pullet that sat in our coop one morning, no one knew where she came from. She must have lost her way and instead of returning home, she joined our chickens. Anyway, she didn't get old, she lived with us for a few months only and then slowly went downhill, and after she died, I took her to the vet's. She had a massive ascites, and the vet said it looked as if she had had a peritonitis long ago. No way I could have saved her.

Others died from tumours, rare and common ones, poisonous substances that worked slowly but steadily, one cockerel who died from a heart attack with every other organ looking fine, I even had chicks who died when they were three or so weeks old, one after the other. Not nice, and nothing I tried to save them helped. Believe me, I wanted to give up chickens altogether, it was one of my first broodies with her first chicks, it broke my heart - and it was only after the PM that I was a little comforted, knowing it really hadn't been my fault. They had all had a rare inherited heart anomaly which killed them when their bodies got too large for their weak heart.

I'm just telling you this because I really think it wasn't your fault that Madeline died, either. There are so many things that can kill a chicken. I'm really sorry you need to go through this so early in your chicken keeping :-(((

[baldrick]

Im sorry you have been through this. I think the thing you have to remember is no matter what you do, with animals sometimes the sh*t fairy visits. I have seen chooks in pretty grim conditions as healthy as anything so TBH Id be amazed if your care was to blame. I have a friend who has kept chickens for years (in lovely conditions of free range). He told me when I first started that there is no such thing as a sick chicken, only an alive one or a dead one. While Im not sure thats true as I nursed 3 through myco some time ago I can take his point. I was told these 3 would probably die and should be culled...they pulled through. I have had others fine one day, poorly the next,dead the next.
Stop beating yourself up, you cant change what has happened and you are unlikely to think straight or rationally if another crisis happens while you are panicking and feeling like this. Your first duty is to yourself as if you are a wreck you are no good to your remaining girls x Dont burn the coop. Dismantle it, drill some more ventilation if you wish and stack it in the shed in case you need a hospital coop in future. You will also need to house any new girls you get seperate for a quarantine period so the coop will be handy. Its not the coops fault, its not your fault. If you feel happier ask your vet for a course of oral tylan to put in your girls drinking water. they can order it. Its expensive as you may need to pay for a whole bottle but it keeps in the fridge for a while.
Re security. We have a fox at the allotment who poos on my plot. I have industrial weld mesh under the shavings on the floor. Its about 13 pounds per 6ft x3 ft sheet and its robust enough that claws wont be caught. Hope that helps.

[VirginVegGrower]

Hi Baldrick - thank you. The industrial stuff is what we bought to do the floor originally so still have that. I am going to ask for the Tylan - good point - do you know it's shelf life please?
How did you determine Myco and what were your nursing tips? I still feel we had Madeline turned at one point. We were given Baytril in a dropper .7ml, once daily, five days. I know it's no good now but if it should happen again, is a five day course enough?
More questions again - am sorry - but I want a plan in my head, so I'm ready.

[baldrick]

TBH Im no expert, and as my vet says no swabs were taken so she cant be 100% thats what mine had, though she is pretty confident.She explained to me that with diseases like myco, mareks and possibly others there is a list of symptoms, most but not all of which have to be present to indicate disease. With my birds the symptoms were pretty classic apparently
1/ Immediately followed a period of stress (the day after I bought them)
2/Serious weight loss
3/ wheezy chest
4/sneezing
5/ the big one BUBBLY DISCHARGE FROM EYES AND NOSTRILS
6/ watery snot
7/ serious lack of activity and not eating well
8/ they felt cold and loose skinned
Their feathers also went dull looking and fluffed. I cant believe how fast it hit us.

Not sure what the shelf life is for Tylan but a bottle was about £24. I also had to have 2 lots of tylan jab each. In total the vet bill was about 70 quid. Im still reeling! I wouldnt advise dragging them to the vet unless they are showing signs of being unwell tbh as that in itself is stressful. With chooks sometimes youre damned if you do and damned if you dont. Just get good grub and maybe some vitamins into them, try to minimise stress and change and thats all you can do x

[VirginVegGrower]

Thanks for that - good pointers. We had no sneezing, coughing, rattling, watery eye or nasal discharge. I had kept looking. Although now I know where the air sacs are located I am lifting the birds up to get a closer listen. Got my hair pecked yesterday.
We had got what is called going light and loose feathered, rather than tight feathered, but as they were both moulting we put it down to that. Only way as far as I can tell is to pick your birds up and know their weight. My mum worked as a matron at an old people's home when they got a stray hen walk in through the front door. Harriet as she became lived there for seven years. Nobody knew to worm her or delouse/demite her. I am incredulous...
Neither Mr VVG nor I care what the vet's bill is/was at the moment. We pay straight up and can live on baked beans if necessary. I can't eat much at the moment and definitely not meat. He suggested making a chicken curry last night as we had meat to use up. I nearly panned him one until he then followed it up with "you know, I don't think I can eat it. Let's give it the dogs!" He reckons he wants to spend a week with a chicken keeper/breeder to see what they do and how they get to know their hens health, etc. am thinking chicken course for Christmas present.

[Suechooks]

Tylan comes as a powder which you dilute in the water so the shelf life is probably quite long. If your vet doesn't have it you can ask for a prescription and send for it from the one of the internet pharmacies. Most if not all vets won't pescribe without seeing the bird but in the circumstances maybe you vet would agree to pescribe for your remaining girls and then you have it in your armoury to be used at your discretion and in consultation with the vet? They do now charge for the prescription BTW.

[VirginVegGrower]

Hi Suechooks - we talked to Bill the vet again this morning. He said that he doesn't keep Tylan 200 in as they don't have a big enough avian clientele, but he does have the powder and is happy for us to have some. I have also agreed to purchase the injectable one which he will keep for our hens. When it's out of date he will throw it and we re buy. I am weighing up options here...breeder said the powder is useless and only injectable is any good for instant hit, but we had turned Madds around with Baytril by mouth, she then had Baytril injected that Monday morning and died within five minutes. I am trying to weigh the scales of evidence, fact and less stress to the birds.
I do feel a bit as though I am running in circles. Just want to do the best by the girls.

[Suechooks]

You need to take a step back, a deep breath and first of all decide who is best qualified to advise you. Weigh up the options then proceed in the way that seems right for you.

[RichmondHens]

I keep Tylan Soluble (powder) in my stock cupboard all the time in case of emergency. On the few occasions I've had to use it it has worked fine, no need for the injection.

[RichmondHens]

You need to take a step back, a deep breath and first of all decide who is best qualified to advise you. Weigh up the options then proceed in the way that seems right for you.

Agree with Sue.

[its hilly]

I agree with Sue and RH. Take a deep breath..then another.
The vine is an excellent source of day to day knowledge, and even info on illnesses. But it is not a replacement for the years of study your vet has put in, followed by however many years of practice. True many vets know little about chooks specificly, however they will have experience of general avian illnesses. If they have a hen showing symptoms of respitory illness then that is what they have to treat, and according to my vet, Baytril is one of the best antibiotics they have for that. Mycroplasma is difficult to be positive about unless they can do a pm. Tylan is the best for that, but not for other things. Bear in mind that chooks can show very similar symptoms for several different illnesses.
I am like RH, and keep a tub of tylan powder in stock. However I have had mycroplasma in my chooks before, confirmed by pm. I would be reasonably confident of recognising the symptoms. If you are unsure you could be treating your birds for that, when it is simply a cold (yes hens do get colds) or another breathing problem, requiring totally different treatment.
You are doing right by trying to learn, but keep perspective. If you read fifty thousand books on chooks you will probably be given the same number of different ways to keep them. The basis is good food, clean dry well ventilated but not drafty housing and somewhere to scratch around, dustbathe etc. And you already have those in place. It takes at least a year of chook slavery before you will have seen your chooks in all seasons. And until you have you will not know what is normal for their/your routine and keeping methods. And I might do things completely differently, but still get the same results. So relax a bit please, keep a close eye out..but dont forget to enjoy as well.
PS sorry..I do waffle on..

[nellie-m]

I still feel we had Madeline turned at one point. We were given Baytril in a dropper .7ml, once daily, five days. I know it's no good now but if it should happen again, is a five day course enough?

When I give Baytril, I give it as injections, so this doesn't necessarily apply to oral (beakal? ;-) treatment. But whenever Baytril injections help, they do help really quickly. I usually see some improvement overnight, but I definitely want to see improvement after 24 hours. Often I had them walk around again like normal after three days, so if I didn't keep records I sometimes wouldn't know which one it was (okay, I keep a bit more than three ;-).
But if I thought a bird was better after five days, but not really well yet, I wouldn't hesitate to give the antibiotic longer. As a rule of thumb, you want two or three "healthy" days before stopping any antibiotic treatment.

Oh and I have never had a bird die within 5 minutes of any injection.