Battery hens......

[Bill HH]

Although moving on from caged birds....
We found the meat from a bird reared at home went twice as far as shop bought meat. It's not tough, though definitely harder to eat, it goes further, it's full of flavour and not so full of water than you need such huge portions. The whole bird is used too, bones for stock or soup etc. I'm amazed at what people put in the bin thinking there's nothing left....

Couldn't agree more, its mostly down to the breed of poultry. Modern broiler chickens are bred to grow at a disgustingly fast rate, from chick to meat in 10 or 12 weeks. When they are cooked the carcass collapses and looks like a duck (flat). We used to eat chickens at home, usually casualties, broken wings etc at a time when chicken was a luxury strictly for Sunday dinner we had it coming out of our ears. A point of lay pullet (24 weeks) free range really was a taste you just cant buy nowadays, my sister and I would fight over the carcass and pick it as clean as a whistle.
The modern broilers are so young that many of their bones are still rubbery and very often have bent legs because the bones cant support their weight.
For a time , after my father died, I joined a scheme where a hatchery supplied me with day old chicks which I reared to maturity. These were the breeding stock of broiler chicks. I then supplied the fertile eggs back to the hatchery and they deducted all the costs of food (which they had supplied) and then the rest was profit. It was a good scheme for a young man who was short of capital but had the sheds and knowledge. But these breeders grew so big that they could hardly walk because they were intended to get fat so quickly. I only did it once and decided it was obscene and quite against the laws of nature, so I stopped it.
That to me is more horrific than battery cages (done properly).

[Glutton4...]

Valid point there, Bill. It is awful what 'they' do with nature, sometimes.

... raises another question - when the ova are exhausted, do physiological changes hasten the end of the bird's life?

I don't think so, MH. Some of my older Batties, who hardly ever laid, still scratched around happily for years (until the Fox visit), just getting older and saggier, much like we do!

[bearded bloke]

On a personal level I would like to thank ALL the contributors to this thread.So many valid points from so many different perspectives,it has thus far made very interesting reading

[Alison]

Some of my older Batties, who hardly ever laid, still scratched around happily for years (until the Fox visit), just getting older and saggier, much like we do!

Ignoring the fox bit, what a lovely retirement for them after a hard working life

[Bill HH]

People get confused between home produced methods and commercial egg production. If you intend to make a profit, which is after all what makes the world go round) you cant have the luxury of keeping non productive birds in your flock, keeping worn out old hens is a choice people make but it is not one available to the commercial producer. There is a tendancy to give poultry human attributes that in reality don't exist, a chickens brain is very small and its main concerns are eating, drinking, reproducing and a safe environment, once those needs are met it will continue lay eggs and in my opinion it really isn't that interested in having a nice view or the latest political developments.
Farming for profit is not easy and I think it is hypocritical for people to criticise their methods whilst being happy to buy the cheapest eggs and meat they can get.
We were forced out of large scale free range egg production because the price differential between our eggs and "factory farmed" eggs was negligible.

[Alison]

Farming for profit is not easy and I think it is hypocritical for people to criticise their methods whilst being happy to buy the cheapest eggs and meat they can get.

Fair point Bill this is true in some cases, but I think you'll see from most of the posts in this thread that most of us who are critical of battery methods here make a real effort to chose in line with our ethics. Somebody else made the point about processed foods, these are indeed often the bottom when it comes to welfare (clearly not always) which is yet another reason to avoid them where possible. The nearer you get to source ingredients the better chance you have what you thought.

Re your point about feelings etc, we can never be 100% sure what anybody or anything can feel and our knowledge is growing all the time. All animals feel a level of pain and you can tell when they are contented. If we are their carers then we have a duty to respect them and treat them accordingly with a dignified life and death (obviously as a meat eater I understand that death if often not due to old age after a long life pottering about the countryside).

[Bill HH]

I agree with you and large scale farming (even battery cages) can be carried out either in cruel uncaring way or with compassion and a genuine respect for the creatures. And yes the people who most raise these welfare issues are most likely to take a deeper interest in the source of the food. But that leaves about 58 million other people who couldn't care less as long as the product is cheap. Without factory farming I think we would most likely have massive starvation in Britain. I know that in an unpalatable fact but none the less true.
Consider also that all these animals and birds would never have seen life had it not been for the fact that we wish to eat them or their produce. A lamb may have its life ended after 12 months but given the choice I am sure they would vote for twelve month rather than nothing.
There seems to be an assumption amongst some people that if we all stopped eating poultry or any animals that they could all roam the fields and have an idyllic life, well of course that is rubbish. They would just cease to exist, a countryside bereft of animals entirely devoted to crops.
As for feelings, I think its safe to assume that the more developed a creature is the more feeling or pain it can feel. Most of us don't give too much thought to killing a slug or swatting a fly for instance. Whereas higher animal forms clearly express pain and suffering but are we right to assume they feel it like we do? given their smaller brains. I know poultry do feel pain, they can suddenly cast of all their feathers if attacked by a fox for instance but do they feel the pleasure of a retirement in a grassy field? I am not so sure. Do they feel discomfort being in a cage? Having never seen a blade of grass I doubt they are pining for the fields. I know a happy chicken when I see one and when I used to look down the rows of cages and I could hardly hear myself think for car caring of contented birds I knew they were ok. What about people, we live in huge cities and have fulfilling live yet that is hardly natural.
I have no axe to grind because I have done both free range and battery (deep litter too) but It hurts me to think people regard these methods as cruel, had I felt that I wouldn't have done them.

[Alison]

Some good points Bill, I think you're right that a lot of people make no association between the supermarket pack and the animal although I honk it was even worse a few years ago. If nothing else the horsemeat saga made SOME people think. Suppose the real difference between the crowds of miserable people you see on he likes of the tube is that in some way they have chosen that life whereas we have chosen the life for he animal - do agree strongly though that there are good and bad in small scale and large although I think sometimes it's easier to divorce yourself from the fact you are dealing with living beings when you don't see them every day in the case of big corporations.

[Bill HH]

Years ago when I was about 14 I had a friend in the village and I would go to his house to play chess some evenings. His father was very similar to Brian Blessed complete with booming voice, he was an internationally recognised angling writer, his entire life revolved around fish and fishing and other green subjects. Well one night the subject of our battery cages came up. He made no secret of the fact that my father and I, in his opinion, should be rammed into a tiny cage for the rest of our lives.It was quite intimidating to a 14 year old boy.
The point of this upload is that a few years later I happened to catch a news report on TV of him having his arse kicked and his tackle thrown in the river by a gang of "Fishing is barbaric" supporters. I have to admit it gave me great satisfaction. But more than that it illustrates how delicate the line (no pun intended) is regarding our perception of what is cruel.
Who knows in a few years time their will be a gardening is cruel and unnatural to plants movement ( if there isn't already.

[veggiechicken]

Lots of very interesting and reasoned discussion on this thread - thanks.
For what its worth, I gave up eating meat (including poultry) more than 25 years ago because I didn't like the way the animals were being treated and medicated. This is my choice entirely and I would never impose it on anyone else. We all have different views of what is acceptable, and long may it be so.
If I may throw something else into the mix, I wonder how many people (not Grapes), who voice their disapproval of battery hens, keep budgies, canaries and parrots etc in tiny cages for their entire lives. Just a thought - as you were

[Dorothy rouse]

VC, this could lead on to a discussion about keeping ANY animal in a cage, ( thinking of zoos ) , yet without them some children wud never have the chance of seeing a lion etc at all. Sorry I know wandering off the point, not another word from me.

[Moopmoop]

A few weeks ago I bought this very small tank as a temporary isolation hospital for a sick siamese fighting fish I had, you can see the size of it in comparison to my laptop. It was fine for the purposes that I purchased it for, what I was infuriated about was the description it had on the label in the tank. It said suitable as a home for insects, snakes, spiders, fish, hamsters, and many other animals. How on earth could any animal permanently live in that, it would barely be suitable to carry the pet home in from the shop. I was so livid that I wanted to complain to Yorkshire Trading where I bought the thing from but couldn't find any contact details for them.

I think this should have probably been in the rant thread, although it is kind of related to this thread too.

[Bill HH]

VC, this could lead on to a discussion about keeping ANY animal in a cage, ( thinking of zoos ) , yet without them some children wud never have the chance of seeing a lion etc at all. Sorry I know wandering off the point, not another word from me.

Without them you wouldn't see the kids for long either.

[Bigmallly]

A few weeks ago I bought this very small tank as a temporary isolation hospital for a sick siamese fighting fish I had, you can see the size of it in comparison to my laptop. It was fine for the purposes that I purchased it for, what I was infuriated about was the description it had on the label in the tank. It said suitable as a home for insects, snakes, spiders, fish, hamsters, and many other animals. How on earth could any animal permanently live in that, it would barely be suitable to carry the pet home in from the shop. I was so livid that I wanted to complain to Yorkshire Trading where I bought the thing from but couldn't find any contact details for them.

I think this should have probably been in the rant thread, although it is kind of related to this thread too.

Don't know if this helps MM: You don't say if it's North, South, East, or West.

Contact Us. Trading Standards Service, West Yorkshire Joint Services

[Glutton4...]

Blimey! That IS small!