Greenhouse staging

[teakdesk]

I hate to tell you TD but tannalised timber is used in every new building project and most refurbs and as been for many years.

If what you claim is true then we are all dead anyway.

Colin

That is what frightens me.

It is why many of us on this forum live in fear and choose to grow organically.

Wood preservative chemicals have been proven again and again to to be totally unsafe near food products and have been banned.


Rightly so.


They are much more dangerous than chemicals used for supermarket food.

I don't want supermarket chemicals.

And I definitely don't want wood preservative chemicals anywhere near my food.


It's your choice... I choose to avoid the poisons.


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[teakdesk]

I think we have to remember that not all substances that have been banned have been so because they are harmful. It is simply the case that the manufacturers and distributors have not been inclined to spend the huge amounts necessary to obtain approval for their products. I have no idea if that is the case with wood treatment products but anyone with any concerns should make their own investigations and come to their own conclusions.

Let me put it this way...

Having done my own investigations...


If I was challenged I would drink a solution of Blood, Fish and Bone or similar fertiliser that I put on my plants.

I would even drink a solution of well rotted manure.


BUT...

I would not drink wood preserving chemicals.




If someone would like to stand next to me and drink them then I may start using those chemicals... assuming they survived, of course.




Any takers ?

[Potstubsdustbins]

TD.

Without upsetting the apple cart you are correct we all make our choices and have to live with them.

But do we have to be so dramatic to try and prove our point I for one do not think so, therefore I tend to look at things and try to make my own mind up.

And to state as a fact that certain products will be banned when the problems have been identified is like saying "I know there are problems but no one else as identified them yet"

And to say a product "Is unproven and is therefore nasty" runs in the same mould.

It might be more prudent to say "The product is unproven and could turn out to be nasty therefore take care" At least that would be a more accurate statement and one with which even I could agree.

Colin

[Aberdeenplotter]

BUT...

I would not drink wood preserving chemicals.

Steady on, no-one is talking about consuming the stuff. Used sensibly it should be safe

[jojo2910]

Thanks, it seems aluminium is the way forward.

[TonyF]

Jojo, if you can afford oak or teak then you can for sure afford aluminium. Oak does degrade - I own a very large oak wood (and I work with the wood) and it can and does degrade (which is how I use mushroom plugs, which adds to the degradation of the timber) unless treated in some way and the Time Team comment is out of context, yes oak will stay around for thousands of years but the circumstances have to be very specific. Left untreated in some way, oak logs will dry out completely in 5 years and will start to disintegrate in 7 years, especially if they are subjected to wetting which staging would be.

Obviously teakdesk has very strong views on this issue, which of course they are entitled to hold. But it's your decision in the end, I build all my own staging from untreated pine and then treat the wood - if you want to use something more non-chemical, use a mix of beeswax and linseed oil, which serves the same purpose and is used by organic beekeepers to preserve their hives.

Fwiw, I use a mixture of some paints (which have not been banned and in the absence of scientific evidence, I will continue to use) and the linseed oil/beeswax mix on my staging. But I also look at the sources like the HDRA/Garden Organic information, which identifies non-organic material - like bordeaux mix - which shouldn't be used in gardens and it's their advice that I will take.

[teakdesk]

TD.

...

But do we have to be so dramatic to try and prove our point I for one do not think so, therefore I tend to look at things and try to make my own mind up.

And to state as a fact that certain products will be banned when the problems have been identified is like saying "I know there are problems but no one else as identified them yet"

...

Colin

Drama is sometimes needed to draw attention to a problem that is being ignored.

Threads on this very forum last year were warning that wood treated until about 5 years ago contained, if I remember correctly, arsenic and should not be used close to crops - eg for raised beds.

There was a suggestion that imported wood still contained banned chemicals and contaminated wood will on sale in the UK for some time as stocks are run down.

There are already questions being asked over the safety of the chemicals that have replaced the old chemicals.

There is a current thread on this forum about burning such wood and the health problems it creates. I think the OP was shocked that the information was not better known - well many of us do know, and have known for some time, of these dangers but they are not being noticed by other people.

There is an article in the papers today about a new report on the health dangers from wood-burning stoves.


With all these warning signs being ignored and chemicals still being brought unknowingly into the garden a bit of drama is definitely needed. If drama saves but one life I will feel completely justified.



You cannot garden organically, as many of us here do, and allow wood preserving chemicals near your crops.




Aluminium staging ? Yes, a good alternative for the end user but not for the poor wretches who die horrible deaths from the mining and processing of the ore into the metal.

Aluminium production causes huge amounts of pollution each year but since it is not in "our back-yard" it is conveniently ignored.

Aluminium was the wonder metal after the war and I was brought up on food cooked in the modern aluminium pans... it is such a shame it took so long for people to accept that the very, very small amounts of aluminium given off by the pans has given thousands and thousands of people dementia and Alzheimer's disease.


You make your choices but for me the choice is to be as natural as possible and avoid man-made chemicals be it fertiliser, pesticides or preservatives.


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[Aberdeenplotter]

Drama is sometimes needed to draw attention to a problem that is being ignored.


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It is un-necessary scaremongering.

[teakdesk]

It is un-necessary scaremongering.

NetRegs is a partnership between the UK environmental regulators – the Environment Agency in England and Wales, SEPA in Scotland and the Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) in Northern Ireland.

If I may re-present a couple of quotes from their advice...

"Wood preservatives can be harmful to the environment and toxic to many animals and plants particularly aquatic life including fish and aquatic insects and plants."

"If CCA treated wood is imported from outside the EU it can only be used for professional and industrial purposes where users do not come into repeated skin contact with it"

"You should store any treated timbers or wood products on a solid base in areas where run-off will not enter surface water drains or seep into the ground."

"Examples of hazardous/special waste... contaminated absorbent materials, such as sand or sawdust"

NetRegs - Wood preservatives


And from a non-government web-site which uses easily understandable words:

"The problem with pressure-treated wood is that water can make some of the dangerous chemicals, like arsenic, leech out of the wood"

"Children and pets are the most susceptible to the hazards of pressure-treated wood, since they are the most likely to have chemicals from the wood transmitted to their mouths, or into their body through splinters."

"Children who play on or around pressure-treated wood should wash their hands when they are done, especially before eating"

"When pressure-treated wood comes in contact with the ground, the chemicals from the wood, especially arsenic, can leech into the soil. The chemicals generally only contaminate a 6-inch radius around the wood, but any plants grown in that soil will have slightly elevated levels of arsenic."

"While there is some uncertainty about whether the amount of arsenic absorbed by edible plants is dangerous to humans, the Environmental Protection Agency advises that pressure-treated lumber should not be used in areas where edible plants grow."

Pressure-Treated Wood Hazards | eHow.co.uk


It is not just me saying this, I'm afraid government agencies are saying it as well. You will find similar concerns world-wide.

It is these agencies who say:

Do not cut or saw such wood without wearing full protection, do not breathe sawdust and legally you must treat sawdust as hazardous waste and not dispose of it in household bins.

Do not let children touch the wood. Do not let water drain off such wood into the soil OR household drains.

Do not grow crops near such wood.




I think most people reading this will be concerned and want to take precautions rather than make glib comments about unnecessary scaremongering.


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[TonyF]

Aluminium staging ? Yes, a good alternative for the end user but not for the poor wretches who die horrible deaths from the mining and processing of the ore into the metal.

Aluminium production causes huge amounts of pollution each year but since it is not in "our back-yard" it is conveniently ignored.

Aluminium was the wonder metal after the war and I was brought up on food cooked in the modern aluminium pans... it is such a shame it took so long for people to accept that the very, very small amounts of aluminium given off by the pans has given thousands and thousands of people dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

Sorry teakdesk but you're starting to come over as patronising and a zealot. If you can prove to me that you live your life, wholly and totally organically, with no impact from anything you do having a detrimental effect on anybody anywhere, then I'll accept your view of using aluminium or anything else.

Obviously you never leave your home, it's wholly unheated because you don't want to have any greenhouse gasses or use nuclear or fossil fuels which can effect people with asthma, you don't use public (or any other transport other than your feet) transport because of the effects on the environment (cycles have to be made, energy costs and metal derivatives), you don't effect animals whether bred for food or not in anything your wear or eat, etc etc.

There's a fine line between information and hectoring

And any wood used in humid conditions need some preservative, to be positive and to make suggestions about a limited budget that neither oak nor teak could meet, instead of telling us what not to use, suggest something positive - how do you feel about linseed oil and beeswax?

[teakdesk]

Sorry teakdesk but you're starting to come over as patronising and a zealot.

You misunderstand me Tony.

There is a wealth of information about both the benefits and dangers of tannilised wood. Unfortunately few people seem to be aware of it and assume it is safe for all uses.

I am trying to high-light that this is not the case, especially in an organic garden.

A poster above made a comment that inferred tannilised wood is safe because it is used for construction work - this is an unsafe assumption; the wood is used for construction in very tightly controlled ways that prevent it being used in the garden. I felt that post had to be corrected and provided official regulations to do so - I'm sorry if the length of the rules made it appear I was being patronising.




I mentioned aluminium as an example of another material that is assumed to be a good "green" material but only because, in general, we are unaware of the dangers and harm that its production does. And it does have a toxicity that most people are unaware of.

The same can be said for the rare earth metals that are essential for wind turbines and "green" cars that will supposedly provide our safe future.



I don't think I advocated not using aluminium, I never intended that if I have. I was trying to high-light the down-sides of aluminium though - the user can decide. I choose to use aluminium but I don't feel "guilt-free" when I do. I also take care to wear a mask when sawing aluminium and keep its dust off my hands - something others may not be aware is advisable.


Yes, all wood will rot in a greenhouse and treated wood will rot slower than untreated and I do use oils (although it is a long time since I've used linseed oil) for preservation and surface finish.

I used untreated pine for my staging. The staging I made 15 years ago has spent the last 6 years outside my greenhouse in the rain and is only now showing rot at the end of the legs.

The heated glass frame (8 feet by 2 feet by 3 feet) I replaced the staging with 6 years ago was made with untreated pine and is only showing rot around the box holding the wet sand - as expected. I'm in the process of replacing this with more untreated pine costing no more than a tub of preservative would have cost me.



I'll admit to being passionate about keeping my fellow human beings informed about dangers they are unaware of and if I appear to be a zealot while trying to make sure facts are not lost to erroneous posts and glib comments then so be it.





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[Potstubsdustbins]

Teak Desk,

You prove my piont a DRAMA QUEEN.

Lets take just one example "I would not drink wood preserving chemicals"

Only a fool would they are not. repeat are not for drinking and to use that analogy is misleading and totally over dramatic.

I can assume then that you have no paint in you house because you would not want to drink that either and you certainly cannot under any circumstances have wall paper because by your reasoning you would have to drink the paste before use.

Then again you cannot have any kind of motorised transport for again by your reasoning you would have to drink either petrol or diesel to prove it safe.

I do not argue your point that treated timber can in some limited circumstance's be dangerous just the high drama of your presentation.

You are typical of the 'eco zealot' in so much as that you and only you are right. Well I have some very bad news for you, no one is always right and everyone is to some extent biased as you most certainly are.

From what I can see of your posts you have read a little but lack the practical thought process to put the information so gleaned to proper use.

Everyting by degrees, take lead as am example. Lead pipe used as a cosh is somewhat dangerous. Molten lead is dangerous. Lead vapour and and airbourne lead particles are very dangerous. A lead bullet is usually lethal.

Colin

[Two_Sheds]

You prove my piont a DRAMA QUEEN.


You are typical of the 'eco zealot'

This is a friendly forum, Pots.
Can you make your points without name-calling?

[Aberdeenplotter]

I have to say that although I did not put in print what Potstubs has, I have nonetheless thought it. It is a ridiculous suggestion to suggest that anyone in their right mind would want to drink a substance produced for the purpose of preserving timber and as I said in my earlier post, it is un-necessary scare mongering.

If the wood preservatives were being marketed as drinks, then the argument would have some substance.

We are discussing greenhouse staging. We do not grow anything directly on the staging but instead grow in containers placed on the staging so there is no direct contact with the "offending" substance.

A measure of reasonableness is needed in any debate and if there are some who try to impose unreasonable views on the rest of us, then they do take the risk of being treated with less respect than they might otherwise expect.

[teakdesk]

Well there's only one thing left for me to do....






















Although as I'm not a drama-queen and can cope with personal attacks, I won't!! Lighten up guys, too much testosterone in the air. It may be that you have responded with some valid points but I'm having trouble deciphering them through the vitriol. Maybe you could repost your arguments rebuffing mine a little more clearly ?








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