F1 hybrid variety

[mhrfm]

Rookie question here.

I purchased some seeds and veg plugs online and have seen in some descriptions that it says they are F1 Hybrid variety.

Are these genetically modified or are they crossbred varieties?

[MelanieSW]

F1 is a first generation cross between different parent varieties.
If you subsequently save seeds from those F1s, you won't know what the result is going to be, but unlikely to be the same.

[mhrfm]

F1 is a first generation cross between different parent varieties.
If you subsequently save seeds from those F1s, you won't know what the result is going to be, but unlikely to be the same.

Wow. That’s crazy. So the seeds could have traits of their parent varieties?

[mothhawk]

Yes, but they won't be as good or as vigorous. Have a read of this.

https://www.allotment-garden.org/gar...ng/f1-hybrids/

[greenishfing]

A few F1 hybrids have their place in my allotment. Lark sweetcorn is one. It is the only sweetcorn that I've grown that grows reliably sweet and strong for me this far north. Another is Crimson Crush tomatoes. After 2 years of all my hard work getting blighted I changed to them. I buy seeds not plugs and for me it is worth it. GM is a different thing altogether and I wouldn't trust it unless I knew an awful lot more about it.

[Penellype]

F1 seeds are not modified in any way, they are bred by crossing 2 existing strains in a way that brings out specific characteristics of each parent in all of the offspring. Genetically modified plants are created in the lab by inserting bits of genetic material into the plant from another plant or even animal, often using a virus as a method of getting the DNA into the cell (as this is what viruses are good at). Once the DNA is inside the plant it will be transferred from parent to offspring in the same way as normal, but if both parents are genetically modified all the offspring will carry the modified genes.

GM is much more accurate and specific than breeding plants naturally to try to get good combinations of genes, but it may carry unknown risks and therefore currently you can't buy GM seeds or food in this country.

[MelanieSW]

Occasionally it's possible to strike lucky - I'd saved some seeds from Orange Dawn squashes, before realising that it was a F1. The yield of the F2 wasn't fantastic, and the squashes smaller (perfect size for a one-person household), but they kept for a long time and were easy to cut with a thin skin that was edible after baking.

[ameno]

Against general advice, I saved some seeds from an F1 variety I grew last year (Mountain Magic, a blight resistant tomato). The seeds are so expensive, and it was the only tomato plant for quite a distance, so the chances of it having crossed with another variety were slim, so I decided to try it.
The plants are currently growing very strongly. I hope they have the taste and blight resistance of the parent.

[Penellype]

Against general advice, I saved some seeds from an F1 variety I grew last year (Mountain Magic, a blight resistant tomato). The seeds are so expensive, and it was the only tomato plant for quite a distance, so the chances of it having crossed with another variety were slim, so I decided to try it.
The plants are currently growing very strongly. I hope they have the taste and blight resistance of the parent.

It is very unlikely. The point about F1 is that they are bred from 2 completely different parents, each of which breed true to type with themselves. The resulting offspring is a blend of the 2 in a very specific way.

Suppose parent 1 has the genes AAbbCCdd and parent 2 has the genes aaBBccDD where abc and d are genes for specific things ALL of the offspring of these parents will be AaBbCcDd. Conventionally the capital letters denote the dominant gene so the offspring will all show the dominant characteristics of all 4 genes, whereas each parent only shows 2.

If you breed 2 of the F1s together it is very unlikely that you will get AaBbCcDd. You are likely to get a jumble of dominant and recessive characteristics showing up, so the seeds you collect (known as F2) will all be mixed up and different from the parents. You don't need to involve a different variety for this to happen.

A good example of this is the beautiful palomino horse, a golden colour with a stunning white mane and tail. Its parents are chestnut (uniform golden brown) and cremello (a creamy almost white). Bred together these colours will always produce palomino. However if you breed 2 palominos together you will get palomino only 1/2 the time, chestnut 1/4 of the time and cremello 1/4 of the time. That is only 1 gene. F1 hybrids that you buy as seeds will have several, possibly many hybrid gene pairs.

[Babru]

Maybe you'll have created 'Mountain Magic Improved' and make your fortune.

[Trouvere]

Presumably in the simplest possible case of Aa x Aa, you're happy with any AA or Aa result (you know AA is not lethal, because the F1's parent exists; and let's say there is no imprinting so it makes no difference whether the A is inherited from male or female parent). Thus 75% of plants in the F2 generation will show the desired phenotype. After disposing of all your aa plants, 1/3 of your survivors will be AA and 2/3 Aa. You probably will not be able to tell these apart until you grow an F3 generation and observe occasional aa throwbacks.
If you are following 2 independent traits, 56% of F2 plants will show both; for 3, it's 42% of plants. And so on, until with 12 traits of interest, only 1 in 32 plants will be precisely what you want.

[Penellype]

Presumably in the simplest possible case of Aa x Aa, you're happy with any AA or Aa result (you know AA is not lethal, because the F1's parent exists; and let's say there is no imprinting so it makes no difference whether the A is inherited from male or female parent). Thus 75% of plants in the F2 generation will show the desired phenotype. After disposing of all your aa plants, 1/3 of your survivors will be AA and 2/3 Aa. You probably will not be able to tell these apart until you grow an F3 generation and observe occasional aa throwbacks.
If you are following 2 independent traits, 56% of F2 plants will show both; for 3, it's 42% of plants. And so on, until with 12 traits of interest, only 1 in 32 plants will be precisely what you want.

Yes, as long as the genes you are using are simple dominant/recessive. My palomino example was carefully chosen, because it is an example of incomplete dominance, where the hybrid shows different characteristics from either parent. This was the closest I could get to what is likely to be the case in most F1 hybrids, where the heterozygous (mixed) genotype is stronger and more vigorous (or has more of the desirable character) than either of the homozygous parents. This is termed hybrid vigour, and does not breed true.

[Trouvere]

If you're breeding for flower or fruit colour, it seems that incomplete dominance is more the rule than not. That's fine, though... it just lowers your success rate on that trait to 50%, assuming you can reliably distinguish heterozygotes from slightly-off homozygotes. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess how often incomplete dominance or co-dominance occurs over simple dominant/recessive relationships. Presumably differs between species.

[ameno]

It is very unlikely. The point about F1 is that they are bred from 2 completely different parents, each of which breed true to type with themselves. The resulting offspring is a blend of the 2 in a very specific way.

Suppose parent 1 has the genes AAbbCCdd and parent 2 has the genes aaBBccDD where abc and d are genes for specific things ALL of the offspring of these parents will be AaBbCcDd. Conventionally the capital letters denote the dominant gene so the offspring will all show the dominant characteristics of all 4 genes, whereas each parent only shows 2.

If you breed 2 of the F1s together it is very unlikely that you will get AaBbCcDd. You are likely to get a jumble of dominant and recessive characteristics showing up, so the seeds you collect (known as F2) will all be mixed up and different from the parents. You don't need to involve a different variety for this to happen.

A good example of this is the beautiful palomino horse, a golden colour with a stunning white mane and tail. Its parents are chestnut (uniform golden brown) and cremello (a creamy almost white). Bred together these colours will always produce palomino. However if you breed 2 palominos together you will get palomino only 1/2 the time, chestnut 1/4 of the time and cremello 1/4 of the time. That is only 1 gene. F1 hybrids that you buy as seeds will have several, possibly many hybrid gene pairs.

I didn't think F1 hybrids were that precise, though?
As far as I was aware, F1 hybrids were offspring of two specific named parent varieties (these parents usually aren't commercially available, of course), not two specific (i.e. genetically identical) parents? That is, the parents are just grown from seed themselves, and so although all examples of Parent A will always be very similar, being the same variety, they are not genetically identical to each other, and therefore the offspring between the two parents will also not all be exactly the same as each other.

[burnie]

I grow a certain amount of F1 seeds, but then I rarely collect my own seeds, no reason, it's just how I've always done it until this year. I have saved some seed from a Hungarian Hot Wax chillie, will be interesting to see what I get as the seed will probably have been crossed with Cayenne chillies.