Newbie Veg Bed Shade probs?

[Witherthumb]

Hi all

We have a 5.2 x 4.6m plot next to the house. Unfortunately it has trees etc in the neighbouring field. The trees etc block the rising sun and the house blocks most of the rest of the day. I timed the direct sun exposure a few days ago and it only got a 2 hours (about 12.30 to 2.30).

We have the space for another spot further along that would get sun the whole day long. Should it be developed as well as or in favour of? I have been reading lots of conflicting advice online but some recent book purchases indicate if we want to do this well the more sun the better.

Could we use the shady plot for leafy veg (lettuce etc) and the other plot for root veg. This would be great as I discovered a near inpenitrible (13inch and counting) layer of clay starting about 8 inches down in the shadey plot.

I would welcome any advice or questions you may have.

Regards

[womble]

I think you have it spot on, shady bit for shady veg and fruit (raspberries should be ok here) sunny bit well worth cultivating for sunny veg.

Lots on info on here and the web for the best types of veg and fruit for shady areas, everything else in the sun


Welcome btw

[FionaH]

Yep, what the womble said! I have salad in my shady bit

[Witherthumb]

Do you think that I should try and deepen the shady bed. I have to get about 3m2 of topsoil for that bed anyway, should I remove as much of the clay as possible a get some more topsoil??

[FionaH]

I am new to gardening and have never had to deal with clay, sure someone a bit more knowledgable will be along soon

[womble]

Do you think that I should try and deepen the shady bed. I have to get about 3m2 of topsoil for that bed anyway, should I remove as much of the clay as possible a get some more topsoil??

I wouldn't, you say you have 8 inches of topsoil on there anyway, double dig if you can and break up the clay below then return the top soil, it will help with drainage. Stick the new toilsoil on top if you think you need to.
Well rotted manure etc will help it immensely.

Be good to hear what others have to say about it though.

[Sanjo]

I wouldn't, you say you have 8 inches of topsoil on there anyway, double dig if you can and break up the clay below then return the top soil, it will help with drainage. Stick the new toilsoil on top if you think you need to.
Well rotted manure etc will help it immensely.

Be good to hear what others have to say about it though.

Hello there and welcome to the vine. I agree with Womble. If you are only growing relatively shallow rooted crops like lettuce then do just as Womble advises, and 8" of top soil is a good depth for lettuce. Clay soil will, over a period of time, break up and in its favour it is supposed to be fairly nutritious. However, if it's a question of which bed do you expend your energy on, well I'd go for the sunnier one as you'll get more benefit from it, much more quickly.

[Witherthumb]

Thanks for the welcome and all the advice.

Just to clarify its not clay soil its just clay. We think that a previous dwelling was knocked down here and that the clay was dumped there from the foundations of the newer house and flattened.

This clay is so dense I broke a tyne from my fork and bent a spade (it popped back though). I'm finding pieces of pottey, lumps of (what i think) stone work surface and really old glass bottles. I thought about planting some Roman artifacts there and getting timeteam to dig the patch for me

I have more clarity on what I should do now.

Regards

[Demeter]

The possible showstopping problem I can foresee with the clay / shady area is drainage. Clay soil can drain poorly, pure clay is going to be even worse. How long have you been in the house - if you have had some serious rain then you will know already how boggy (or not) that area gets. Having said that, if you already have 8" of topsoil and you will obviously add manure and compost over time as you cultivate the bed, it could be no problem at all. (Not that I know what I'm talking about you understand!!)

Apart from the drainage issue, 8" of topsoil, enriched every year or so with compost, manure or other organic matter, will be a lovely place to grow shade-loving veg. You can grow other veg there too (albeit that it will grow more slowly) - and choosing crops with strong deep roots might help to break the underlying clay up a bit and improve drainage e.g. potatoes.

One last thing - although you might only get a couple of hours sunshine in this area in late March, you will get quite a bit more in midsummer when the sun is higher in the sky, just something to remember!

[taff]

Having both sounds like a good plan. Don't underestimate the amount of things you're going to want to grow, it'll take over
In the shady bit, personally, I wouldn't remove any clay, and I also wouldn't turn it over and mix it with topsoil - although it sounds like you can't anyway - I'd just keep increasing the topsoil on top, if that makes sense.
There are loads of things that like shady bits, or not too much heat, so no panic, have both

[DaveInBraknell]

Why don't you make some raised beds, granted the drainage might be a problem at the base (break up the clay a bit as above) but then you don't need to worry anymore about the clay impeding roots et al would allow to create the soil structure you want in the growing space etc.


just my 0.2 cents.

Thats what I did in my backgarden, I have a clay base about 2feet down, rubble above that with about 4inches of topsoil...Ho hum..

[Sanjo]

Hmmmm, SOLID clay eh? Well what about taking up pottery? Seriously though clay is a pain but it would be a real shame to ignore the space. What about using something like a crowbar to hammer holes all over the bottom of the bed and then filling those with sand. Do other grapes think that would help with the drainage? just a thought. Sanjo

[Witherthumb]

Hi All

Thanks again for the responses.

The house is on a hill. When it rains there is a visible drainage over the grass and driveway (on the left of the house). The patch in question (on the right) does seem to suffer that. After I removed the sods there was some very minor pooling.

The patch is next to the edge of the property and there is a immediate drop off to a pretty steep incline. I'm begining to believe alot of rubble landcaping has been going on before the build to provide something of a flatter property. I'm hopping it will mean that the drainage won't be a problem as the clay layer is an incline.

I left a 45cm gap between the patch and the edge fence when I started. I'm thinking I should remove all material up to the fence a see whats happening there. Then dig several channels along to the edge, fill them with stones / sand (whatever the best drainage material would be)...then get some good topsoil and fill it up. I believe this would sort the patch out.

Waddyalll think

Regards

[Witherthumb]

New dev

Since found a layer of matted grass, ash and burnt branches...underneath all that!!!

We have:

9 inches stony soil
3 inches of stony clay
9 inches of solid clay
1 inch of ash, small brances and twigs, lumps of concrete
so far seemly ok soil under that.

Could this all be ground up to make something useful?

[Sanjo]

It would be a big job witherthumb, but would it be possible to sieve the 9" of stoney soil, or at least some of it? At least you could use the soil. If you fork into (over) the 3" of stoney clay, put drainage holes in the solid clay and put the sieved soil back in , that with give a 12" depth. Although minus the stones, the depth would be lower of course, you might need to bulk it up with compost etc. Not a bad depth for growing something useful though. Sanjo