Organic gardening.

[Lazgaot]

As has already been said, at the molecular level the plant knows no different and grows as it should with the nutrients available. Its not as simple as saying this organic potato tastes exactly the same as that one that's been grown commercially with all manner of chemicals, so whats the point?
The application of fertilizers is a much more efficient (time, effort and ease of take up) method of getting the right blend of nutrients (including pesticides) to your specific crop for maximum return. The organic method isn't as efficient therefore the crops will always cost more.

[vegmandan]

All I'll say is that I hope all the Organic growers DO NOT use Bordeaux Mixture which for some ridiculous reason is now classed as "Organic".
It was only added to the Organic list because there was NO Organic cure for Blight even though it doesn't fit the criteria for introduction.
It is a hideous Chemical containing Copper Sulphate which will kill most of your lovely earthworms and other beneficial soil living creatures once it washes off the leaves,and as it is water soluble it will also get into ponds and rivers etc and do no end of harm..
So in summary: some Organic Chemicals are FAR worse than normal ones.
If you don't believe me do some research about the effects of Copper Sulphate on soil dwelling invertibrates,freshwater shrimps etc etc.
So given the basis that Organic Growing is based about the health of the soil and its beneficial microorganisms and insects etc how on earth can they include a product that contains a CHEMICAL that actually kills them ??
Total Hypocrisy !!
So for all those who replied "I grow Organically because I want to know that what I add to my crops is safe" I hope you reconsider.

Sorry for the rant but this is my bete noir considering "Organic Growing"
being safe and harmless and not harming the soil.

Bordeaux Mixture terrible stuff !!

I won't use it and I'm not Organic

[Lazgaot]

Good point Dan, but I'd hope that any self respecting organic gardener would do their home work, or at least Google, any chemicals (herbicides,fungicides etc) that they were considering applying to their crops.

[vegmandan]

Good point Dan, but I'd hope that any self respecting organic gardener would do their home work, or at least Google, any chemicals (herbicides,fungicides etc) that they were considering applying to their crops.

That's the trouble though,once it is classed as "Organic" for some spurious reason, people just assume it IS safe and not damaging when this stuff clearly is.

[Topcat36]

I dont grow organically , ( i am vegan so cant use byproducts from slaughter house etc) i grow veganically just to annoy everyone even more lol. Ok i dont like chemicals dont even like cleaning with them so makes sense not to use them on my veg. I dont use sprays for pests etc, i am the nutter who uses a brush and the garden hose to remove green fly , will go out at night to catch slugs and then take them to the lake in the morning.

Oh! and by the way best TV gardener was GEOFF HAMILTON :P

[King Carrot]

This one will cause arguments, insults and possibly even blood to run but I'm going to (deliberately) put the proverbial cat amongst the proverbial pigeons. If I should get expelled from GYO's site...well it should be fun.

Will some organic gardener please explain why chemicals delivered by a so called organic process should make vegetables taste better, or be better for you, than chemicals delivered by a manufacturing process? Loads of tests have shown that if you feed people a plate of organic potatoes and a plate of potatoes grown using commercial fertilisers, nobody can tell the difference. And analysis shows that there is no difference in nutritional value.

I will agree with that statement, if both cabbages are grown alongside each other in the same soil without adding anything other than basic 5-5-5 chemical NPK and organic 5-5-5 NPK. As there are no varying differences in naturally occuring minerals/elements then they will of course have the same nutritional value.

To say that, for instance a cabbage, industrially grown in a field containing poorly maintained or dead soil and fed solely inorganic NPK will have as much nutritional value as a cabbage of the same variety grown in soil that is healthy, (humus added to maintain balance) cared for and being fed with a balanced organic NPK + essential minerals & elements is absolute ballcocks. For a start when you push up the level of K (which commercial growers do for size and weight) the level of vitamin content in veggies will decrease.

The point I am making is that by adding as many minerals and elements that plants require to my soil, alongside my organic NPK and humus, my cabbage will have a much higher nutritional value as all the elements and minerals are available to it.

Plants do not perform miracles, if all the elements and minerals a plant needs are not presented in the soil or any liquid feed, then the plant will not get an opportunity to absorb them and turn them into nutrients and vitamins.

Quite simple really

[King Carrot]

All I'll say is that I hope all the Organic growers DO NOT use Bordeaux Mixture which for some ridiculous reason is now classed as "Organic".
It was only added to the Organic list because there was NO Organic cure for Blight even though it doesn't fit the criteria for introduction.
It is a hideous Chemical containing Copper Sulphate which will kill most of your lovely earthworms and other beneficial soil living creatures once it washes off the leaves,and as it is water soluble it will also get into ponds and rivers etc and do no end of harm..
So in summary: some Organic Chemicals are FAR worse than normal ones.
If you don't believe me do some research about the effects of Copper Sulphate on soil dwelling invertibrates,freshwater shrimps etc etc.
So given the basis that Organic Growing is based about the health of the soil and its beneficial microorganisms and insects etc how on earth can they include a product that contains a CHEMICAL that actually kills them ??
Total Hypocrisy !!
So for all those who replied "I grow Organically because I want to know that what I add to my crops is safe" I hope you reconsider.

Sorry for the rant but this is my bete noir considering "Organic Growing"
being safe and harmless and not harming the soil.

Bordeaux Mixture terrible stuff !!

I won't use it and I'm not Organic

I totally agree with you on that, should not be part of organic growing.

[King Carrot]

I dont grow organically , ( i am vegan so cant use byproducts from slaughter house etc) i grow veganically just to piss everyone of even more lol. Ok i dont like chemicals dont even like cleaning with them so makes sense not to use them on my veg. I dont use sprays for pests etc, i am the nutter who uses a brush and the garden hose to remove green fly , will go out at night to catch slugs and then take them to the lake in the morning.

Oh! and by the way best TV gardener was GEOFF HAMILTON :P

all sounds very ominous for the poor ole slugs - is it breakfast time for the ducks or do they sink or swim

[vegmandan]

I totally agree with you on that, should not be part of organic growing.

At last,someone who agrees with me on the Bad Old Bordeaux Mixture.

Thank you

[greengas]

I do not grow organic but do not also use just chemicals I mix and match to suit my needs. I guess its each to there own i can honestly say the only difference I notice between organic and inorgarnic veg from supermarket is price.

[organic]

Nice thread, sarraceniac!

The very short answer is one I've given many times before (though not on here).
I'm happy to pay more to know my food has been grown in s**t and dirt rather than a tub of chemicals with a coating of poison.

The more detailed answer and reasoning follows... but it all falls into that same short answer.

Why organic?

Sights have been levelled on organic food a number of times in the mainstream media... headlines like "the great organic swindle" or some such spring to mind.

One article claimed "organic food has more salt, more fat and more (something I forget right now) than non-organic food" or words to that effect. I'm not sure any organic proponents who really know what they are talking about ever really claimed it was low in salt, low fat and low in that-other-thing though.

Many, many claims have been made about organic food including better for you, healthier, lower fat and more besides. Most of them miss the point of organic food (and probably more importantly, organic farming).

Organic farming - even better if it's done in a way that isn't "monoculture" (they are not in the majority, but there are growers out there who shy away from large fields of a single crop - with or without rotation) is far, far better for the environment, wildlife and the health of those that live and work on and near the farms than conventional farming.

Nobody working on an organic farm need wear chemical protection gear when out spraying crops... because they won't be.
Nobody living next to a field containing organically grown crops will be made ill by pesticide sprays that drift in through open windows.
Not a single miligram of poison will be washed into rivers.
Topsoil is improved rather than impoverished (at least, it should be if the farm is run by real organic principles as opposed to just "without chemicals").
Wildlife flourishes.
Habitat is increased rather than lost.

See Pigletwillie's comment about vineyards for a good example of the real effect of conventional farming. Lifeless soil... death and decay everywhere. The organic farm/vineyard next door has a very different scene.


Really the benefits of organic farming in and of itself are reason enough to prefer organic food over non-organic... but the benefits don't stop there.

There is no risk, when eating organic food, that you're consuming pesticide residues or preservatives - the effects of which on the human body are at best, unknown and at worst, positively harmful.

So the organic food may not be "better for you" in the apple, potato or leaf being somehow better... but it's almost certainly "better for you" because it is not coated in or containing poisons and preservatives.


Then there's the price issue.

Organic food (particularly in supermarkets) costs more for one reason and one reason alone. It is seen as a premium product. End of story.
Whenever I can find an excuse to be on the south side of Manchester, I call into a workers cooperative grocery called Unicorn... they sell organic food, where possible it's also locally grown and seasonal. Their organic fruit and vegetables are invariably cheaper than non-organic vegetables in the "big four" supermarkets.

They do not have the same buying power that supermarkets have so they aren't keeping their prices down by massive bulk buying... they keep their prices down by simply not charging a premium.


When it comes to taste - I'm not sure organic comes into it... what matters there is a different word... "fresh". As anyone who's pulled something off a plant and put it straight into their mouth (pausing only to check for livestock and dirt) knows... the fresher your food is, the better it tastes.


As it stands, I always buy organic in preference to non-organic for the above reasons. I don't want to eat pesticide residues. I don't want to support farmers who poison the landscape with chemicals, or who spray those same chemicals near schools, offices and homes... and whenever I'm in the neighbourhood, I shop in that wonderful worker's cooperative and get those organic groceries for significantly lower prices than the pesticide-riddled equivalents elsewhere.

The lower price, the lack of pesticides and the benefits to the cuontryside and it's inhabitants (be they flora, fauna or human) might make it taste sweeter, but that's nothing a blind taste test would pick up on.


Again, nice thread sarraceniac. I don't know if this answered your question in any way... I don't expect so, as in part I don't really see organic food in the way your question framed it. It's a much bigger picture. Hopefully this (and the posts above, some of which I know I've repeated points from) will answer why we really go organic and (where there's no organic grocers with fantastic prices and irregularly shaped veg to shop at) pay a premium for the privilege.

[organic]

Thought this would do as a separate post.

Vegmandan - I also agree that Bordeaux mixture doesn't sit well with an organic ethos. Personally I won't be using it and I'm inclined to think the mindset that runs to Bordeaux mixture is that which sees organic farming as little more than conventional farming without the chemicals.

Favouring blight resistant varieties (something that's been my prime concern when choosing my maincrop spuds - I've gone for Sarpo Mira) is a good move.

Also, it's my understanding that monoculture doesn't help. One field with nothing but a single crop has got to be more susceptible to blight and other pests/diseases than a much more "mixed up" approach.

I'll be very interested to see if I'm affected any differently than my neighbouring plotholders this year... as far as I'm aware, I'm the only one not growing in rows and blocks of a single crop. Time will tell on that front.

[Two_Sheds]

As well as the excellent reasons/examples given by PW and the others, I'd like to reduce my dependency on oil (and petrochemicals): not just in the synthetic chemicals themselves, but the air miles, packaging etc.

Did anyone see Tropic of Cancer this week? It had a little clip of the organic gardens in the Cuban slums.

[sarraceniac]

And are you feeling OK Sarraceniac? Not like you to start a fight in the playground!

Nothing to do with fighting Jeanied. I just thought that if we were all to sit round agreeing that Brand X is the best potato or discussing whether tomatoes should be planted during the last week in February or the first week in March then we might as well save our breath for blowing our (organically grown) porridge. And it seems that our intelligent community can argue the advantages and disadvantages of organics without wanting to kill each other. Especially the grape whose contribution was 'Whatever'.

I'm not organic by the definitions of, well anybody really. I do prefer to use environmentally sound fertilisers and soil improvers but I must admit to two or six failings. I do use Bordeaux mixture on my fruit trees when I have to. Last year my peach tree got an attack of the dreaded leaf curl. The only organic answer is to chop the tree down, burn it and start again. Bordeaux mixture (2 sprayings) cured it. I really can't see why it should suddenly be declared 'organic' by some nameless people who are in charge of telling everyone what is organic (i.e. politically correct) and what is not, but I can see why they did it. It's a bit like a government saying that all their policies will be ethical unless somebody annoys them. I had no intention of burning my peach tree, I am getting too old to start again with a young tree so the only reasonable answer was Bordeaux mixture. I think pretending it is organic is hypocrasy though. Likewise, I feed my fruit trees, bushes and canes on sulphates. It is so easy, it only goes into the soil and a handful of S. of ammonia and S. of potash does me for the year. It's lazy but it works. I do make my own Comfrey juice and use it when I can. But at this time of year, I don't have any. So my clematis etc. are given a good slug of commercial tomato food before the spring surge. If I am forcing rhubarb it gets the same treatment around Christmas.

Did you see the fellow who got 3 years for selling battery eggs as free range? I just wonder how much of the food we buy as organic is truly just that?

[zazen999]

Just to expand on my point last night.

Soil consists of [according to RHS studies]
25% air
25% water
45% minerals [so clay, silt, sand]
5% humus [which is the organic part].

The organic part holds the minerals together, and the nutrients in the organic are made available to the plants by being water soluble. [So, the very foundation of your soil].

So, if we take away the air and water part; then if you aren't replacing your organic content then you are potentially losing 10% of the 'solid' part of your soil. Even more if you have sandy soil as clay 'holds' onto the organic and minerals much better due to it's very nature.

Chemicals, as part of a fertilising regime; are held in polymers and non-organic 'carriers. These 'break down' and release the chemicals either when they encounter water or are temperature based [so as the season warms up, the 'nutrients' are released].

So, if you aren't replacing organic material in your soil; and are using chemicals - you are in essence replacing your organic material with plastics.

This may not be an issue if you only use your soil once and throw it away. But you can't actually remove all those plastics/polymers/chemicals/carriers from your own soil system; it stays there and in time will start [as PW says] affecting the worms and micro-organisms which are the vehicles to breaking down the organic in your soil which makes organic nutrients available to the plant. Thus - the more non-organic you add, the more problems you may have.

I'm not talking 'Organic' here [on a list somewhere], I'm talking 'organic' ie from an organic source.