Removing side shoots on toms

[womble]

There was a bit of a discussion about this with Tomatoking on another thread.
I've left shoots on a few times with a truss of flowers on it and then stoped the sideshoot and let the plant carry on normally.
Or, I've stopped the plant by accident and then let a sideshoot flower and that's been fine as well.

This year I have one outside Ferline that I stopped at one truss and let two sideshoots form to one truss each, so it will have 3 trusses maximum. It definitely isn't doing as well, as if I'd let it form three normal trusses.

Next year I was planning to have a few outside Ferline in a line and do different things with each one, just to see what happens.

For me in the greenhouse, I want light and neat growing so I can see what's going on and airflow around the plants, so growing without sideshoots is good for me.

Tomatoking said that tomato cordons are designed to crop in one way, straight up the stem and they grow better that way, also they ripen their fruit at different stages that way, otherwise it may all be together.

[Davyburns]

After reading the post by TK on this I removed all my sideshoots, even the ones that had trusses on, and that was a lot of foliage, and straight away I had more room, and the toms I had scalped looked better than they ever had, and the fruits seemed to swell a lot quicker. I wish I had of just done it half and half though, just out of curiosity

[zazen999]

Tomatoking said that tomato cordons are designed to crop in one way, straight up the stem and they grow better that way, also they ripen their fruit at different stages that way, otherwise it may all be together.

See, I'd rather have them ripen at once, and be made into somethings [like oven dried toms] than over a long period of time and risk blight.

I'm just trying to work out why the advice exists, when they say it is because the plant will grow foliage at the expense of fruits; when that evidently isn't the case.

If you have 6 trusses on one plant, whether it is up the stem or on sideshoots; and you get the toms that you want then is that not 'job done'?

I suspect it might be because industrial tom growers grow them like that, under controlled conditions and thus they need them close to the stem; whereas if we just let them grow as they want, and let them their 6 trusses [or whatever floats each person's boat] and just keep the leaves trimmed [or not, if botrytis isn't a problem]....and get earlier fruit.

I'm just curious.....as the advice doesn't fit the evidence....

[vicky]

I've got 2 tomato beds this year, one armpitted, staked, watered and generally loved. The other almost abandoned as an experiment. Same varieties. But I do enjoy the walking round snapping off sideshoots - power!

[reetnproper]

I de-sideshoot my outside plants to prevent them becoming top heavy and toppling over, especially in gusty weather. In pervious years we've had to reinforce the supports to try and stabilise the plants and ended up with an impressive structure made up of bamboos and garden wire, all in an attempt to prevent the plants/branches falling over.

In the greenhouse I do it to allow ventilation and light to get to all the trusses and I also take of the bottom leaves as well for the same reason. Nipping out the side shoots also helps me maintain the integrity of the plants and also enables me to reach around and trim the branches where they touch the green house panes which, I was advised by an older and more experienced grower of tomatoes, helps prevent mould forming on leaves damp with condensation - particularly during cold, damp weather. Not sure wether or not this is true but I do it anyway and it doesn't seem to harm the plants.

Reet
x

[Tomatoking]

Ok this will be a long post so bear with me.

The question is what sort of crop do you require. If you want most of your toms together, and a short crop and can’t be bothered to side shoot, then grow determinate plants.
If you want to get a longer crop, picking fresh fruit daily for months, then grow indeterminate plants, as like I have said before, that is what they are produced for.

Many trials have proven that you get more production from spacing plants at 18” apart than 12” apart, so why fill this space with shoots. You also need good air circulation to help prevent disease and stop it spreading, especially in a greenhouse.

OK there are exceptions to all basic guidelines and if you were short of growing height, and stopped your toms at only a few trusses, then you could grow extra fruit on shoots.
It is the trusses on the shoots that take up the plants crop producing energy, not the leaves. The leaves just do not help air circulation. But once the plants head is stopped, then that energy will go into the crop on the shoots.
But, like I said you will get more production, if you could have let the plant head carry on growing.

Some people might say that after they removed all the great big shoots off their plants, the plant didn’t really perform that much better, well the reason is that the shoots should not have been there in the first place, so you can’t really compare as you will have a totally different plant to what you could have had.
You also might not have had the first trusses setting well, and this will lead to your plant not controlling itself and just getting even more foliar growth. But this is the only time that I would advise leaving shoots on a plant, but nip the heads off them, leaving the trusses and leaves. Do not leave any more trusses on the plant, from then on. But as I said, those shoots should have not been left to grow so long in the first place.
Where I once grew, we had 40 men working, who each had 5000 plants to trim and pick every week. The ones that got behind with their side shooting had a lot less crops.

Like has been said, each to their own ways, so what works for you do it. I just know that my crop to the 6ft high wire is loaded with tomatoes, the trusses are virtually touching each other, and I know that if I had not removed any shoots, there is no way I would have had a crop like that.

I can only go by what I have seen and learn from my mistakes. So just do the same.

Mr TK

[zazen999]

But, like I said you will get more production, if you could have let the plant head carry on growing.


Where I once grew, we had 40 men working, who each had 5000 plants to trim and pick every week. The ones that got behind with their side shooting had a lot less crop.

But what production would you get if you let say the first 6 trusses set; and then stopped all the shoots? In this country where any outside toms can get blight; it might actually be better to get a shorter crop period rather than a longer one?

Also, I can see why the ones that got behind on their side shooting would get less crop, as the plant had already invested energy in the side shoots which were then removed; so it's not really a comparison.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; it's just I'm trying to get to the bottom of the actual reason that we take the sideshoots off....and apart from a longer cropping period and stability; that seems to be the only reason at the moment?

[Tomatoking]

But what production would you get if you let say the first 6 trusses set; and then stopped all the shoots? In this country where any outside toms can get blight; it might actually be better to get a shorter crop period rather than a longer one?

A: I agree it is better to have a shorter season outside, because of the blight risk. But if you left the shoots on, then it would take longer for the 6 trusses on the stem to set and mature with an indeterminate plant.
I would just nip the head out, a few leaves past the sixth truss. I think this would do better than say leaving shoots on, and counting the trusses on them as part of your six trusses.

Also, I can see why the ones that got behind on their side shooting would get less crops, as the plant had already invested energy in the side shoots which were then removed; so it's not really a comparison.

A:The problem is that the trusses on the plant are weak, and so are ones on the shoots, so if they had even stopped the shoots at the tip the whole crop still would have been poor.



I'm not trying to be argumentative; it's just I'm trying to get to the bottom of the actual reason that we take the sideshoots off....and apart from a longer cropping period and stability; that seems to be the only reason at the moment?

A: I think tomatoes probably started as determinate types, which produced a small crop when left to their own devices.
Then as we do, humans started playing God, trying to get faster crops with more production and uniformity, hence the popular use of indeterminate plants.

To do as you're saying, is how determinate plants grow naturally, as they stop themselves, which I am sure that you know. You are really saying to grow indeterminate plants like determinate ones, but stopping the head and all the shoots when the plant has just a few trusses on the stem and a few on the shoots.

The only reason I personally would not do it is that I find with all the shoots left on a young plant, the main trusses develop a lot slower and poorer. That sometimes leads to a leggy plant will lots of foliage, which in turn delays the fruit production and sometimes poor setting, because the plant was developed not to produce like this.

However there is no harm trying the two ways. But you will have to weigh each tomato off every plant to really compare.

[Crosbie]

I remember Jamie Oliver had tomatoes growing out of baked bean tins...

[hamsterqueen]

call me stupid , but what are determinate and indeterminate plants??

[Tomatoking]

call me stupid , but what are determinate and indeterminate pants??

I will try to explain it in laymans' terms Hampsterqueen.

Indeterminate or cordon plants are designed to grow to at least 6ft tall and will continue cropping all season. It is recommended to remove all side shoots for a better crop.

Determinate or Bush style tomato plants do not need to be side shooted, they do not grow very high, and tend to crop over a few weeks, so you get most of the fruit together.

That's basically it.

Mr TK

[zazen999]

I remember Jamie Oliver had tomatoes growing out of baked bean tins...

I think it was beans in baked bean tins, and toms in tomato soup tins.

[SarzWix]

Determinate means that the plants 'determine' when to stop growing (upwards), Indeterminate means that they don't have a 'determined' stopping point and will keep growing upwards 'til you stop them.
They are also known as 'bush' (determinate) and 'cordon' or 'vine' (indeterminate).

[hsthst]

But what production would you get if you let say the first 6 trusses set; and then stopped all the shoots? In this country where any outside toms can get blight; it might actually be better to get a shorter crop period rather than a longer one?

I thought I was being clever by stopping some of my cordons at 2 and 3 trusses so as to stagger the crop across the season...................what has happened? Nothing, they just went into hibernation and are at exactly the same place in fruit formation as the ones with 6 and 7 trusses, so basically I have lost 4 trusses of toms for no gain whatsoever!

[womble]

I thought I was being clever by stopping some of my cordons at 2 and 3 trusses so as to stagger the crop across the season...................what has happened? Nothing, they just went into hibernation and are at exactly the same place in fruit formation as the ones with 6 and 7 trusses, so basically I have lost 4 trusses of toms for no gain whatsoever!

Yeah, I've tried that and it worked similar to you this year, but last year it worked well. I think the differences are down to he type of tomato. Last year it was purple ukraine and that worked quite well, I had outside tomatoes earlier than inside. But this year I tried Ferline and as you, it has gone into almost hibernation. PU also worked well letting SS's grow btw.

I wonder, if the older tomatoes work better with being mucked around and the newer F1's, don't.
Makes sense, we've bred them and bred them to do what we want, so they do it. As TK says.

When I have had the odd side shoot flower and crop here and there, it's been no problem, but I think let the whole plant grow SS's and it will be different I think.

It's strange, because I'm growing Roma VF for the first time and after having read threads on here it is better if the SS's are left, so that plant grows differently and it makes sense that the cordons grow better in a different way.

It definitely makes a difference when you let them grow in different ways and as I said I will be experimenting in different ways next year. But as I also say, it definitely makes a difference with the variety, I think we should do tests, each of us and post the results, we may hit on something.