peat free compost

[Alison]

To be honest either a vegetarian or vegan should technically avoid any by product of something which involves the animal being killed although different people will draw the line in different places. The only real difference between vegan and a standard vegetarian is that the latter will eat things which come from an animal if it hasn't died eg honey, eggs, milk etc (although this does ignore the male chicks / calves being gased at birth etc but that's another discussion)

[Two_Sheds]

No disrespect meant

...and no offence taken x

To be honest either a vegetarian or vegan should technically avoid any by product of something which involves the animal being killed

I disagree ~ vegetarians don't eat flesh - and The Vegetarian Society defines a vegetarian as: "Someone who lives on a diet of grains, pulses, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits with, or without, the use of dairy products and eggs. A vegetarian does not eat any meat, poultry, game, fish, shellfish* or by-products of slaughter."

They can, and some do, wear leather (yep, that old chestnut) ... the animal kind of does have to be dead. And as you say, milk involves the killing of male calves (which simply aren't needed in dairy production).

[Alison]

OK, fair point suppose it depends on why you're a vegetarian as to how it adds up in your head. If you do it for personal health then the use of by products (other than for eating) doesn't really matter but if it's on the grounds of ethics or animal crueltry then it's probably harder to balance regardless of what a society says.

Agree wholeheartedly re fish, annoys me how many people try and palm off fish as a vegetarian option (maybe I could grow some at the lottie this season, do you know where to get the seeds, maybe caviar would work?), it isn't. Having said that I also get annoyed by people who claim to be vegetarian when really they mean they don't like beef (or something), just say that and we'll all avoid the confusion if I'm catering for you.

[Shadylane]

- Think of wet sand on a beach: sandcastles: it clumps together. Vermiculite is better
- Never use old (butt) water to water seedlings, it increases chances of damping off disease

Fair point, but I'm sure I've read somewhere to add sand to homemade compost. Anyway won't be doing that again. I always use tap water for seedlings.

Re vegetarianism:
When I was still at school way back int' day, I knew a vegetarian who wore leather shoes. Her argument was that leather shoes lasted longer and at least she was doing her bit. I don't think there should be any rules, you do whatever you feel is right or suits you. Unless of course you start ramming your views down my throat in which case I will throw your leather shoes right bck at you

[Kaiya]

(although this does ignore the male chicks / calves being gased at birth etc but that's another discussion)

Just to clarify - dairy calves are not gassed, they are killed by captive bolt, same as adult cattle. Also, with the exception of the super specialised dairy breeds like the Holstein which have little to no value as meat, the majority of male dairy calves are not killed at birth - they go into the beef/veal industry (veal welfare is a separate issue - white veal is illegal in the UK, however British rose veal is similar to beef in welfare; random factoid, a Soil Association rule is that calves from organic dairy calves can't go into the white veal industry, so buying organic milk is better for the calves than normal milk, even though veal has nothing really to do with organic-ness).

Considering even pain relief tablets, wool, wine etc. aren't vegan it's very hard to have a life that genuinely doesn't result in the death/damage of other species. With peat, I think it's good to decrease it's use if we can, but I think we do offset some damage by growing things in the first place - supporting our local biota if nothing else. I've never been very good at avoiding peat, mostly because it seems to be in the cheapest of multi-purpose compost, and monies matter, but would like to reduce my use of it.

[Alison]

Just to clarify - dairy calves are not gassed, they are killed by captive bolt, same as adult cattle. Also, with the exception of the super specialised dairy breeds like the Holstein which have little to no value as meat, the majority of male dairy calves are not killed at birth - they go into the beef/veal industry (veal welfare is a separate issue - white veal is illegal in the UK, however British rose veal is similar to beef in welfare; random factoid, a Soil Association rule is that calves from organic dairy calves can't go into the white veal industry, so buying organic milk is better for the calves than normal milk, even though veal has nothing really to do with organic-ness).

Sorry, my fault re the chicks / calves thing, just put chicks to start with then added the calf bit later without changing the bit that followed rather than actually thinking that they gased calves. The organic farmer we buy a high percentage of our meat from do a very nice rose veal and I've been eating veal quite happily for the past few years after avoiding it most of my life due to the white veal you mention. However to say that the majority aren't killed at birth in the UK is incorrect, this is the fate of over 100,000 every year which sadly I'd say was a significant number.

[Potstubsdustbins]

I have to agree with Alison re male calves in dairy herds. There was a program about it only the other night and there are thousands slaughtered at birth purely because they have no monetary value. I do eat meat but have not touched veal for years because of the production method used on the continent. However having watched how the 'rose veal' calves are kept in this country I will now eat British 'rose veal'.

Colin

[Kaiya]

100k sounds a lot but the UK herd is 2 million, producing around 1 million male calves a year. So 90% do go on to veal or beef. That's not to say the 10% don't matter - I think they do. Another reason buying organic is better for calves is that they tend to use the dual purpose breeds like the Friesian, so male calves do have some worth and will be kept. I don't buy organic food otherwise, but the welfare associations that come with organic milk do sway me on that


Back to peat - just curious, if peat was used less in the past, does that mean the varieties of seeds we have now might be 'designed' to work best with peat compost?

[Two_Sheds]

if peat was used less in the past, does that mean the varieties of seeds we have now might be 'designed' to work best with peat compost?

but they don't work best with peat. They grow just as well, in nearly all cases, with peat free. Peat gardeners may have to change their watering regime, as well as their mind set, to get best results, that's all.

It's like changing from a petrol car to a diesel. You just need to re-train yourself a bit.

[Potstubsdustbins]

Except with certain acid loving plants or difficult to germinate seeds. Bob Flowerdew's words not mine.

Colin

[Two_Sheds]

^ even those don't specifically need PEAT. They need ericaceous material ~ that could be composted bracken/pine needles, etc

[Alison]

but they don't work best with peat. They grow just as well, in nearly all cases, with peat free. Peat gardeners may have to change their watering regime, as well as their mind set, to get best results, that's all.

It's like changing from a petrol car to a diesel. You just need to re-train yourself a bit.

Exactly and to be honest I firmly believe that the way you need to water peat free is how plants ideally like to be watered anyway. Yes you can get away with being lazier about it with peat based but is that necessarily a good thing?

[Two_Sheds]

the way you need to water peat free is how plants ideally like to be watered anyway.

Indeed. Peat is from a bog; peat absorbs lots of water ~ not all plants like boggy conditions.