Improving clay soil - Lost Garden Newbie

[woody21]

hi to all here, my 1st post but ive been reading around here for a while now.

ive spent the last few weeks clearing my neglegted and very overgrown garden so i can use it to grow some fruit and veg but i have a lot to learn

the garden 'was' grass with the odd shrub and tree that went wild, inch thick brambles in places.

New to gardening and knowing nothing im struggling to figure out what to do with the soil in my garden to improve its structure, i think i have 'heavy clay' soil. especially in the areas i want to cultivate. it clods together and likes to stick to my nice new stainless steel spade! anything brought up from 3-4 or more inches down dries to a cement/concrete grey in the sun.

i have 2 areas that get sun most of the day, a 24x11 foot bed surrounded by bricks slightly raised, and a 10x20 foot area where the polytunnel is going.. and space at the bottom of the garden for 3 fruit trees.

i have been searching for information but the more i read the more confused i get, i just dont know if its compost,manure, grit/compost mix or soil conditioner i need.
im going to need quite a bit so it will be costly, addition af any would make an improveent but what would be the best.

i spent all of yesterday afternoon trying to get 'council compost' prices from my local district offices but nobody knows anything about how i can get any or if its at all availiable to buy. but im wary of its quality anyway.

rolawn stuff is expensive but most of what i read is good, again dont know what product or mix of products would suit my needs best.
ive looked at other cheaper simiar stuff too but wonder if im asking for trouble.

ive found a product called ' peat free claybreaker ' which is compost with lots of horticultiral grit in it, this needs to be very well dug into the soil to work so it says.


THEN, figuring out the best way to work any of these into my soil is another mission, as the more i read the more im confused especially as i read overworking clay soil can do more harm than good. and i was planning on getting a big rotovator in

any advice would be most helpfull. including hardy crops i can grow this year that will further help with improving my soil structure further for next year.

if all else fails anyone wanna swap a polytunnel for a pottery wheel

[Kleftiwallah]

" I think i have 'heavy clay' soil. especially in the areas i want to cultivate. it clods together and likes to stick to my nice new stainless steel spade! "

Yep that's clay soil. The hardest to work but the most moisture retentive.

" compost,manure, grit/compost mix or soil conditioner i need."

Yep all of those, you can also add spent mushroom compost. Anything that will separate the soil particles. Just keep looking for the cheapest for the greatest volume available. Don't forget, little and often and don't go at it like a 'bull at a gate'. Cheers, Tony.

[Matt94]

i think this would be better in the introduce yourself section - dont worry im sure the mods will move it if it is.

[zazen999]

Mulch with cardboard, lots of it and when your plants are ready to go in, make a hole in the cardboard and plant through. Mulch also with any grass clippings you have, and make sure you have a compost heap on the go for future compost needs. This you will add to your soil as a mulch as often as you can.

Any freecycle sand/grit/topsoil offers, get in there, bag them up and bring them home.

I did get some council compost from Coventry council - however it was for a school and I don't think they give it out to anyone - but keep trying you never know.

Also, you can contact stables and get well rotted manure - again I've had some in Coventry for a different school whilst the teenagers dug and bagged themselves; they like you are on heavy clay.

The brilliant thing about clay is that it is full of nutrients. The bad thing is it's claggy or solid - and very rarely in between. So mulch mulch mulch and plant though your mulches to let the roots of the plant grab those nutrients. If your soil is dry when you go to mulch, give it a good drenching beforehand and the soil will stay moist.

When you mulch, the worms take the organic material down into the clay and it really helps to break the clay up. The heavier the clay, the longer it takes but if you want instant results, it's going to cost you!

[woody21]

Mulch with cardboard, lots of it and when your plants are ready to go in, make a hole in the cardboard and plant through. Mulch also with any grass clippings you have, and make sure you have a compost heap on the go for future compost needs. This you will add to your soil as a mulch as often as you can.

The brilliant thing about clay is that it is full of nutrients. The bad thing is it's claggy or solid - and very rarely in between. So mulch mulch mulch and plant though your mulches to let the roots of the plant grab those nutrients. If your soil is dry when you go to mulch, give it a good drenching beforehand and the soil will stay moist.

When you mulch, the worms take the organic material down into the clay and it really helps to break the clay up. The heavier the clay, the longer it takes but if you want instant results, it's going to cost you!

Thanks for your replys guys,

i do seem to have a LOT of worms wherever i dig, i dont have to go deep and im finding really juicy worms everywhere. deeper i go the more i find.
could this mean the soil might be a little better than i think it is, the 24x11 bed was very overgrown and under the overgrowth was a lot of composting material covering the ground.

i will get some pictures, as i know so little its hard to describe.

i would love to get some of the freecycle offers byt as i dont drive its hard to sort out transport, same for getting manure unless i can get it delivered.

i can get manure from a family friend who has horses, but wood chips are used for bedding so no use to me this year at least.
could i get some of this and bag it up to mature for next year? will the wood rot down enough to not cause problems with the nutrients in the soil?

i have already begun composting so i will have some home made compost to use next year, i will also be getting a few waterbutts soon.

mushroom compost i have seen, cant find a cheap source of it yet online so maybe need to try local places. with delivery not far off premium soil prices.

all options are expensive due to the amount needed, just knowing what would be best..

i was hoping to grow something in the ground this year, especially in the polytunnel as pots will be a nightmare to keep watered but it will be a lot cheaper to go that way.

[Dynamo]

Yes I'd say that having plenty of worms is a healthy sign. As for what to add to the soil, as others have said here, anything you can lay your hands on. You said in your first post that your wary of the quality of the compost from the council. Don't be. It doesn't matter if its really course stuff you get off them. It will still do your soil a world of good. Sometimes councils give away their compost as soil improver.

[Creemteez]

Hi Woody, welcome to the vine! Yes, grab that horse pooh and bag it up. You can either leave it in the bags for spreading in the Autumn or use it as an addition to your compost bins. If you have grass clippings in regular supply (ask your neighbours - they'll probably be thrilled to get rid!) you can layer these with your wood-chippy horse pooh in the composter. The grass clippings are high in nitrogen and need something carboniferous (LOVE that word) - ie wood chips to balance the mix. The horse pooh acts as an activator, so if you mix as you layer it up, you should have a composter which breaks down quite quickly. I would add the occasional shovel full of fresh "paddock muffins" to the mix as these will really get things cooking.
As to what to grow this year, you won't go far wrong following Zaz's advice. - Potatoes will probably be a good choice to start with. There are LOTS of threads on here which will give you details. Good luck!

[Two_Sheds]

i just dont know if its compost, manure ... or soil conditioner i need

They will all help, certainly. The ideal soil is a loam: not too sandy (like me) not too heavy (like you). Adding those improvers is balancing for both our soil types, but they don't have to go on all at once

im going to need quite a bit so it will be costly [/QUOTE] You don't necessarily "need" it, and definitely not all at once, and it definitely doesn't need to be costly if you're prepared to apply some elbow grease instead:

- black sacks of leafmould, collect every autumn and leave for a year
- lasagne beds: I saved probably £600 by not buying in topsoil for school's beds
- mole hills: excellent sieved soil, but heavy to carry

I do spend a lot on compost, but I sow all my seeds into modules and then plant out when the seedlings look strong: otherwise they struggle against the sand, drought and slugs. Planting out modules is also incorporating compost into the problem area

hardy crops i can grow this year

Hardy means "tolerates frost". As we're just coming to the end of the winter now, you don't need to worry about hardy this season

that will further help with improving my soil structure further for next year.

That would be a green manure then: I'd recommend alfalfa, I love it. You can devote whole beds to it, or just grow it in strips amongst your crops

i do seem to have a LOT of worms wherever i dig

Excellent, that's a brilliant sign: couldn't be better.
They aerate (dig) your soil for you. Rotavating will destroy their tunnels, as well as the worms themselves if they get in the way

under the overgrowth was a lot of composting material covering the ground

Leaf litter, like you get in forests? That's the basis of permaculture gardening, also mulching and no-dig methods.

That leaf litter is a perfectly natural mulch: it smothers weeds and puts a good blanket over the soil protecting it from erosion and desertification, and keeping moisture in the soil. That's what you aim for if you choose no-dig

http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...ment_5573.html

[taff]

you can more or less grow anything in it this year as lng as ou stop it from drying out in hot weather and cracking, so zazens advice of planting through cardboard, very good
everyone else advice also good.
Mine would be throw nothing away. CHop your weeds down and keep any non flowering bits for mulching, burn your woody bits and sprinkle that on any bits you're growing fruiting stuff on [toms/peppers/fruit] or on your compost heap.
Roots, drown them in a bucket for liquid feed, when they're dead, put them on the compost.
There's no need to throw anything away, you can use it all to put nutrients or compost back in.
You can ask your neighbours [if you've got some] for their grass clippings for mulching, shred newspapers for your heap, ask your neighbours for their animal bedding waste if they have hamsters or similar.

[di]

Hi Woody, there's really not much to add, just two tips I can offer from my experience.

The first year on one of my plots, before improving the soil, I got my best ever crop of swede. They seem to like a bit of clay.

Before I sow carrots, I prepare a little 'V' shaped trench with my spade and fill with a mix of potting compost and sand. It's worked so far and as you're only filling a small 'trench' (if you can call it that), it really shouldn't cost you too much to do.

Also, if you're going to go the mulch with cardboard and add stuff to the top as and when, squash would be a great choice, just dig a slightly bigger hole than you normally would and fill with a little compost.

Good luck, this might not be your most productive year, but your sure to get some crops. Just try to look at your growing as a combination of attempting to get some veg but also improving the structure of your soil.

[di]

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You can ask your neighbours [if you've got some] for their grass clippings for mulching, shred newspapers for your heap, ask your neighbours for their animal bedding waste if they have hamsters or similar.

The first time you ask is the hardest....and you wonder if it's really worth it, but all those bags of soiled animal bedding soon mount up.

[Dynamo]

Be careful with grass cuttings if you get them from someone else. If they have treated their lawn with Weed And Feed it will probably harm your crop.

[jackyspratty]

I agree with all the advise given and Ive used all of it since joining the vine. My first allotmenyt post was entitled "I want to cry". I sepnt ages digging out couch grass and digging the beds to return the next week ton find them solidified like concrete in the sun! I used the cover with card and layer technique. I use manure, grass clippings, chicking manure from my neighbour (its not well rotted and sawdust but used as a mulch seems to work fine, I think Charles Dowding recommends it as a top layer mulch but not for digging in which will leach nutriants from the soiL), paper, leaves, coffee grains, anything like compost,

As said dont rush you add as you get it! As long as you cover with wet newspaper or cardborad and weght down then layer on top gradually, it surpresses weeds and is gradually brought down in the soil by the worms. Cant recommend highly enough.

I havent tried grren manures but hope to in the autumn. Main thing is do it gradually and it ceases to be this mammoth task. Good luck.

[taff]

yup, there's nothing like gardening to give you patience...and you don't have to wait long for it either

[woody21]

Thanks for the all the information, ive got so much to go on with all the advice i have learned a lot in the last 24 hours.

Home brew compost is one thing i need to scale up on for next years supply.
i have grass clippings of my own, asked next door earlier today and got a yes!! as well as bedding from his 2 guinea pigs. also have a family members keeping bedding for me.
Also i see the grass verge all the way up the road as fair game!... best fix the mower!
Composting the manure with wood chips in is fantastic, i will be getting as much as i can and a few 'paddock muffins... that made me chuckle.

is there anything i need to beware of using bedding/poo from hamsters, rabbits and guinea pigs, if not im asking the local pet shop which would be a nice size supply.

no-dig gardening and lasagne beds, very interesting indeed and ive spent a while googling for more details. this is the way i will be going as it suits the areas i have to use.
should i fork the area and loosen the ground a little but without turning it over before i begin to add my layers? adding airation?

ive been reading about layering newspaper, hay, manure, hay, manure and topping off with compost topping then protecting with a mulch.
lucerne hay is reccomemded, makes sense after reading up about green manure.
this sounds suitable for me as all these things i can buy and have delivered in quantity but have the hastle of hunting around for best prices.
need to keep chasing the council for cheap compost too.

i have areas for green manure crops and can have more over winter... great suggestion and very interesting reading up about it.

heres a few pictures of my plot, only have recent pictures and wish i had taken more early on.
these pictures were from near 2 weeks ago, ive done a little more since including clearing all my sheds of years of junk.!