Interesting research on organic versus non-organic growing

[snohare]

Needless to say, this is not the whole picture, but it shows that it is not always as black and white as tends to be assumed...

http://http://ecochildsplay.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Screen-shot-2012-03-15-at-9.33.53-AM.png

[Kaiya]

I always think the organic concept is a weird one - is it health? environment? animal welfare? I generally think that organic is none of these things, yet it *tends* to be associated with better health benefits for the person eating it, less impact on the environment, and better animal welfare BUT none of these things are guaranteed simply by the fact it's organic. I drink organic milk because the calves generally have better welfare (although it's not guaranteed), but I eat non-organic veg because it's cheaper and so far I haven't suffered the side effects (and carrot welfare has never been a major concern of mine).

I grow organically because I can - I have the luxury of being able to buy food, so it makes little sense to also spend money and time potentially contaminating my food with agents to support it's growth. If a harvest fails, I won't starve. However if I was dependent on my patch of land to feed me and my family, and/or I was feeding more than 2-3 people off this patch, I'd be more inclined to support growth via inorganic means.

I don't de-flea my cats organically. I use chemicals. Previously, only when needed. The only reason I now dose them preventatively is because the treatment I use also treats for roundworms, which are a risk to my newborn nephew, and no matter the real risk his health trumps over chemical abstinence.

[Leeds_lad]

I grow organically because pesticides etc cost money =p
Being of Yorkshire blood, anything free always trumps over anything that costs =D

[Alison]

I grow organically because I have yet to see any reasons why I would want to wage chemical warfare on my plot. Whilst people can agree / disagree about whether such chemicals will cause me any harm (although there are many articles about things that are supposedly safe that turn out not to be ) my body certainly doesn't need them so why risk it? Just because you don't get an immediate negative effect doesn't mean damage isn't being done.

[yekim_4321]

Okay if we dont class tomato food as 'chemicals' then myself and OH garden organically, now i must point out that this is neither intentional or unintentional, just something that we have never done nor found the need to do(use chemicals).
It is something i think about the amount of chemicals that are used to produce our food, my theory is would we still be able to sustain the demand for food if we did not use these said chemicals...and so far i have not suffered (to my knowledge) from eating shop bought veg. just my tuppence worth

[taff]

If I knew what any of those things were and whether it was good or bad that they were increased/decreased in organic veg, I might stand a chance of arguing intelligently. However, I don't
I do it because I can, I don't want to eat something that could be full of rubbish. I want to eat my own stuff full of rubbish

[Sylvan]

Well now! If organic vegetables contain significantly higher levels of salicylic acid we'd better stop growing organically

Salicylic acid is one of the dodgy substances for those of us that "suffer" from ADHD (or rather, those of you that suffer from having to deal with those of us who have ADHD ). I can't remember but I think it's bad for asthmatics too.

[snohare]

You hit the nail on the head Sylvan, natural does not mean safe, nor chemical free - Ma Nature uses chemicals too. Any combination of atoms is a chemical !
But it's a good idea to bear in mind that if we have co-evolved with it for eons, it is more likely that we can survive it (Well, most of us.)

my theory is would we still be able to sustain the demand for food if we did not use these said chemicals...and so far i have not suffered (to my knowledge) from eating shop bought veg.

Yekim, I doubt very much if we could have yields as high without artificial fertilisers etc; but calories are not always nutrition...our problem nowadays is quality of food, not quantity. And given the known tendency of genetic effects from pesticides and other endocrine disruptors to hit the following generations (epigenetic changes), the question is - what do you think is the risk to your children's health ?
I'm making these points not to stir trouble but to see what others think and feel; although I am as "green" as possible I have a very nuanced, not to mention unconventional attitude to the situation - if we could trust the companies or the regulators, I'd welcome GM with open arms.

[Feral007]

The organic word does get bandied around a lot and I'm not entirely sure what they mean by it myself half the time. Biodynamic seems to be the word garnering attention now around here.
For me, I want as llittle additives as possible before the food gets to me. As with manure and weed tea's you are putting back in some of that which was taken out. We have a very thin topsoil layer here and it can be quite low in a lot of the minerals needed. We are planning to get the farm soil tested, and then replace the minerals the soil needs to grow native grasses and trees. To me this is putting back to grow what should grow best here. I could add mineras that would let me grow bigger crops, but I find that my animals do so much better on the native grasses than they ever do on the pretty green stuff.
So it is not just about growing your own and not using chemicals, it is about making the soil as good as it can be and growing to climate. Altho I am planning on a makeshift polytunnel to get things started earlier and maybe finish them off later next season - so I'll be messing with nature a bit.

When you look at the farm, we have introduced weeds that are taking over and need to be perpetually sprayed over and over. A group of us are trialling some other methods and pooling our information. We used solarisation, and the benefit of that in the hot weather is that it also kills the weed seed. In colder weather the ground doesnt heat enough to kill more than the plant. But as well as the killing of the weeds and seeds, we have to put the minerals back in that are missing so that the native plants have a chance against these introduced species.
I still buy food at the supermarket. And where possible I buy meat from a biodynamic farmer - dont know if its my perception but it does taste good. And for me, the fact that they are paddock grown and not stressed by all the transporting etc does make me feel better about not being a veggie.
There have been times over the years where additives to feeds for stock contained growth hormones and antibiotics. Now I'm not going to argue over which ones. But I do know that they existed, and I'm not sure that they still don't. Everytime I see a chicken leg for sale in the supermarket and the chicken leg is about 20 cm tall............I'm worried about what size the rest of the chook was like

I also believe that if you put 10 opposing sections of scientists up against each other using the same research, that they could make it support their own views and convince you and me - all ten of them and ten views.
For me, I just want the healthiest food I can make and afford to buy. The benefit of gardening is that (bar the pesiticides) you get the relaxation of the gardening itself!

Of soap box now.....

[chris]

I tend to by locally produced veg where ever I can, and I buy organic veg, again if I can because I prefer to be eating stuff that hasn't been sprayed. By organic, I mean with the SA stamp on it.

[Feral007]

Our local health food shop sells a lot of produce 'grown using organic principles' since there is a huge history of pesticide use in the area so getting stamped organic can be 10 yrs down the track. Still better than GM to ensure ability to withstand even more pesticides.

[Kaiya]

But it's a good idea to bear in mind that if we have co-evolved with it for eons, it is more likely that we can survive it (Well, most of us.)

Indeed. The reason we can eat high levels of onions, garlic, raisins, grapes, chocolate (theobromine) and to some extent alcohol without poisoning ourselves is that our livers evolved to deal with the plant toxins we face with an omnivorous diet. Whereas dog and especially cat livers lack the enzymes needed to deal with such toxins. Random aside!

[sowitgrowit]

Possibly a tiny bit off topic (but wasn't sure if creating a new thread would clutter the place up) - I see that Monty Don is falling out with the BBC's producers over his refusal to endorse non-organic methods of pest control.

Monty Don in row with BBC over pledge he will 'promote non organic gardening' - Telegraph

[Peas'n'Kews]

I grow using as few chemicals as I possibly can - so I use slug pellets (but try to get the "organic" type) and I spray mythe weeds on my large gravel drive with weedkiller when I can no longer control them by hand sensibly.

But for the most part I use donkey poo (courtesy or a neighbour), chicken pellets and home made compost and tomato food. Is this organic? I don't know.

I do know I intensely dislike the idea of GM foods, for much the same reason as I dislike nuclear enegry and bringing insects, animals, or plants in from another country to try and control a problem. We have no idea what the long term effects might be and WE NEVER LEARN.

Just my tuppence worth...

[sowitgrowit]

I grow using as few chemicals as I possibly can (...)
I do know I intensely dislike the idea of GM foods, for much the same reason as I dislike nuclear enegry and bringing insects, animals, or plants in from another country to try and control a problem. We have no idea what the long term effects might be and WE NEVER LEARN.

This sums up my opinions pretty well. I'm not 100% organic (though I do admire the stance and am moving more and more that way).

The food I'm growing is for 3 of us (me, 'er, our daughter). I am attempting to grow fresh, healthy food that isn't covered in chemicals, pesticides, preservatives, etc, though I will confess to using blue pellets against the sluggies.

Other than that, no non-organics so far (or on the horizon).