Aminopyralid/herbicide damage 2012

[zazen999]

That's the point, it obviously isn't organic so shouldn't say it is.

Indeed. I know that. However there are things out there that say they are one thing and they evidently aren't.

[veggiechicken]

And its events like this that make you lose trust in a label, unfortunately.

[solway cropper]

Thanks, everyone. I won't publish the supplier's name on an open forum for obvious reasons but I already have the letter typed up, plus loads of photos of the damaged plants and the batch number on the FYM bag. Compensation isn't really the issue here...it's only a few tomatoes but I would like some clarification of what went wrong. The supplier may be an innocent party as they have to source their material from somewhere but organic should mean just that. Unfortunately it has become a bit of a buzzword and, unless you are the Soil Association, can mean more or less whatever you want it to mean!!

[Feral007]

I'm doing a bit of research now on aminopyralid since I am spraying here myself (glyphosate) but will be getting some broadleaf spraying done (and have in the past). Trying to find the facts that I want ie the Brand names it is sold as here in australia and when it started being sold and is it still avialable is really hard to find. So far I've only come up with an application by the company to start selling the product here, and a yes from the powers that be.
I thoroughly dislike the non transparency that is evident in some areas. It makes me very suspicious when things are made very difficult to find out.
Ahhh now I have a list of two broadleaf sprays one is one of the widest used around here! I am interested to find out if picloram also has as many problems as amino and clopyralid.

[Paulottie]

I don't think 'Organic can mean 'anything but that on a commercial level SC. The point is that the Soil Assoc exist to provide (as presumably enforce) a standardisation for what can be marketed as 'Organic.' Thus as Z pointed out- this is obviously not.... then the 'manufacturer' (not the cow!) must be prevented from selling it.(infact organic or not as it is contaminated) ...until they can satisfy that they have sorted out the problem.

I would have thought a lorry load of uncontaminated muck would be a reasonable reward for not publishing SC. and go someway to convincing you they have sorted the problem.(do you dare spread it) I don't think it is just about a couple of Tomatoes but the damage to your hitherto uncontaminated loam....I am not saying they knew but they now know that someone in the chain is telling porkies and that is valuable information.

I am not particularly uptight about chemicals; I just haven't ever used many myself but many people are very concerned about it and would be very upset.

Best of luck and keep us informed of progress

[MojoJojo]

Can anyone find the Soil Association criteria for Organic manure?
It's possible they don't have any restrictions on what animals providing "Organic" manure can be fed on, since (from what I know) the pesticide build up problem is fairly recent.

I think the organic label *might* only mean that manure is approved for use on organic farms, and doesn't necessarily say anything about the manure itself. But I can't find any detail on the SA site - manure gets mentioned a lot.

Found this link though which is interesting - Can compost be truly organic? Part 3 | Farm In My Pocket | Farm In My Pocket

[zazen999]

The only compost that I am aware the soil association approve is Fertile Fibre. Not sure about any manures.

[SarzWix]

I think the only way to truly feel 'safe' with imported manures/soil conditioners on your plot is to check the provenance of the material from field to animal to your plot. I've been very lucky in that my neighbouring plot-holder works with horses, and has spent several days on the phone tracking the feed/hay/straw back to its producer and checking that no --pyralids have been used at any stage. I wouldn't trust it from any other source.

[zazen999]

And when the person who manages the centre, who mows the lawns and puts the grass out for you to take, is directly asked if it's been treated with anything and they say 'no'...and you find out they were the ones treating it themselves!

You just can't trust anyone not to lie about it.

[VirginVegGrower]

That's why I only use my grass, but in situations where you are needing much more, for say schools it looks to be a minefield. I am sorry to hear about this Zaz. I would question why they are using weed killers on fields that children will come into contact with. These people obviously don't think before they spray.
I too asked the question a while back about manure that's labelled as organic, when it had no Soil Association accreditation. I assume it's that that you can't get more organic than poo, ie. it is a naturally formed product, rather than a man made synthetic fertiliser, however we are reading organic to mean cattle fed on organic lands. These two are however very different as we are finding out. I contacted my local organic farm shop, who raise cattle on SA accredited land. They are stockpiling me some sheep poop, no idea if that's good for the garden, but they don't raise cows. All my horsey contacts have come to nothing, they cannot rule out any ragwort killers on the land they stable/turn out their gee gees on...sigh. It's more than a minefield.

[veggiechicken]

Have just done a Goggle for "organic compost" as I have serious doubts about the contents of these bags - especially the ones sold in huge quantities by the DIY stores.
Here's Vital Earth's take on it (my italics).Compost, Fertiliser Frequently Asked Questions
How is it made?
Garden and other green waste is composted, using a unique process – hi-tech, yet completely natural – to destroy weeds, pests and diseases, and to create a superbly-textured compost high in humus, protected at all stages from contamination and rainfall.

Are your growing media approved by the Soil Association?
No. Unfortunately, the Soil Association have not approved a key ingredient – albeit used in tiny amounts – because they regard its source as being derived from a "non-ethical system of animal husbandry."

However, it is certainly organic in the scientific sense of the word (i.e. of natural origin), recycled, sustainable and of UK origin. As farming exists today, we have no cost-effective alternative.

We have other differences of view e.g. SA approved use of aluminium sulphate as slug/snail killer – Vital Earth's view is that being traditional does not necessarily make it safe!"

So it could contain any garden waste - like the stuff in my neighbour's greenbin, which may or may not have been treated with weedkiller. Does heat-treatment kill off the after effects???

[Feral007]

Well I found out more than I needed to know this morning on google.
I haven't had my paddocks boomsprayed for broad weeds for a couple of years.
I know the weeds inspector is going to go after that one next. But every single one of the broad leaf sprays is nasty.
And then there's the fact that I've just bought in 4 round bales of hay from a neighbour. You can bet he'll have used at least one if not two of those on the paddocks for haying. Since we've already had a bale for each of the sets of horses - oldies and youngies, there's no point even going there yet.
When I next 'have a chat' I'll try to steer the subject towards what he sprays with. But I don't have any hope.
Seems a shame since the horses seem to be pooping out a huge load of manure atm, and all around the hay bale so easy to collect......D@mn shame.
Just feeling quite fed up that even if you put the money into it and pay someone to get after the broadleaf weeds then it's just going to be bad news.

[Potstubsdustbins]

Feral use could always mix up a small batch and plant into it as a test. If those plants survive then I think you would be OK to use it. Trouble is you will have to test with every new bale.

Colin

[Feral007]

TBH Pots people here, farmers especially seem to be very taken with the weed killers. Especially the hormone ones which seem to be the worst offenders. And they are the ones most likely to kill either broadleaf and/or woody weeds. Just really depressing, and knowing that we will be taking on the weeds inspector again. Have 4 days to the end of the month but will be away all of them. I'm hoping for a weeks reprieve when we get back before inspection.
I'm desperate to test the soil and remineralise so that I can minimise the amount of anythng we have to use, but it's expensive and time consuming.
Will probably feel better once we have the inspection out of the way.