Polyculture v. crop rotation

[salome2001]

I am a bit confused

The conventional gardening books all make a big thing of rotating crops every year to minimise disease and soil nutrient depletion.

Then I read people like James Wong championing planting lots of different veg together because this minimises the soil losing specific nutrients and deters pests.

But if you plant, say, alliums and brassicas and legumes in one place (in my case, one raised bed), then the principles of crop rotation means all three families are out for the next year.... which is going to make planning where things go very, very complicated.

Any thoughts?

[veggiechicken]

I'm a polyculture person - it seems more natural to me. I don't plant in rows or blocks - just clusters wherever I can fit things in amongst flowers and trees - its a mishmash If I had an allotment it might be different!
If you look at the Gertrude Franck thread she moves her crop rows about 50cms each year - that's her version of rotation.

[datz]

Interesting post! I have split our available land into a - mainly - veg area and an orchard area that we are under planting with perennials both shrubs and ground over. Trying to follow the idea of a forest garden as per Martin Crawford. But as the fruit trees are newly planted and adding the shrubs etc is a long term plan I'm going to put some veg into the area over the next few years. It will be interesting to see how they get on. veggieChicken - I had wondered about mixing it up a bit and I think I'll give it a try, I'm lucky in having the space to play with.

[veggiechicken]

Datz, I have an old orchard and quite a few large trees so its a question of adapting my growing to fit! I take a Forest garden approach and am growing more and more perennial veg. This year I'm trying to grow winter maturing veg like kale, in amongst the trees. My theory is that, since there will be no leaves from about October to April, they'll have as much light there as in open ground. Also, shade tolerating veg like lettuce can go there. Just testing this, this year so there are no guarantees

[Two_Sheds]

The conventional gardening books all make a big thing of rotating crops every year to minimise disease and soil nutrient depletion.

The basic underlying idea is not to continually grow the same plant in the same place. For example, if you grow spuds, a greedy crop, in the same ground year on year on year, AND YOU NEVER REPLENISH the soil , your soil will suffer.

So, you move your crops around your plot.

Commercial farmers simply drench their crops in pesticides, herbicides & fertilisers to combat any problems.

Me, I follow a rough 4 bed rotation, but it is only a guideline. I no longer rotate my spuds (because my whole plot is alkaline, and gives them scab, so I now grow them in a leafmould bed, which has extra compost added every year).

[drunkgardener]

Commercial farmers simply drench their crops in pesticides, herbicides & fertilisers to combat any problems.

totally incorrect

[drunkgardener]

there rules for doing poly-cropping correctly since some crops do not grow well together. I can not post list at the moment but most are list on companion planting charts as bad companions

[Two_Sheds]

totally incorrect

so commercial growers don't use sprays? I'm happy to be corrected: though provide links, please

Here's one I selected in a quick google:



- Stomp Aqua (SOLA 2921/2009) ... on lettuce pre-planting ... Very good weed control in carrots
- Springbok (metazachlor + dimethenamid-P) This herbicide is currently approved on oil seed rape
- Nirvana (pendimethalin + imazamox) Gives good pre-emergence weed control in beans at up to 4 l/ha and in peas
- Signum (pyraclostrobin + boscalid) This fungicide helps the crop immune system and improves nitrogen uptake
- To prevent Botrytis and ringspot in lettuce, apply up to three sprays of Rovral
- Leek may receive up to three sprays of Invader
- Cabbage trials have shown Signum can be sprayed ...14 days before harvest, to reduce storage diseases

http://www.dardni.gov.uk/ruralni/veg..._april__11.pdf

[solway cropper]

totally incorrect

living up to your name I see.

[zazen999]

totally incorrect

Interesting...Would you care to expand on that please?

[drunkgardener]

Nope your ones who do not understood since commercial growers do not
simply Drench there crops with pesticides, herbicides & fertilizers.

they may use " crops with pesticides, herbicides & fertilizers." but they don't just don't spray willy nilly. they follow regulations as well as proper reasons for spraying.
the word "drench " has different but similar meaning
1. To wet through and through; soak.
2. drowned i excessive amounts
spray or apply are different in that they do not suggest excessive amounts.

ttfn
ps words mean things to be careful in there use

[zazen999]

Nope your ones who do not understood since commercial growers do not
simply Drench there crops with pesticides, herbicides & fertilizers.

they may use " crops with pesticides, herbicides & fertilizers." but they don't just don't spray willy nilly. they follow regulations as well as proper reasons for spraying.
the word "drench " has different but similar meaning
1. To wet through and through; soak.
2. drowned i excessive amounts
spray or apply are different in that they do not suggest excessive amounts.

ttfn
ps words mean things to be careful in there use

If you consider that using any pesticides is too much, then drenching is apt as a descriptor. If they followed instructions then we wouldn't have had issues with aminopyralid contaminating manure.

[drunkgardener]

zazen999
so you don't use any organic sprays to kill insects or unwanted plants.
if you do they are still pesticides and herbicides.
organic sprays can be just as dangerous as the ones created in factory from raw chemicals.

[Olorin2001]

I don't spray to kill unwanted insects, nor do I spray to kill unwanted plants.
Beer for slug traps is the most obnoxious substance I use, that cheap own brand stuff from the supermarkets, undrinkable for humans, but the slugs don't seem to notice.
I have 30 rod of allotment and in the main it is permaculture (forest/woodland garden) fruit trees and fruit hedges inter planted with mostly perenial food crops. And for annual crops I have a high tech approach, sinking large pots, tubs or buckets into beds of leaf mould or well rotted 4 year old wood chips, which keeps everything nice and moist
Inputs are large amounts of manure, leaf mould, all and any organic matter I can get for composting. My compost bins are 5 cubic metres and I have four of them, takes a year to fill one, then they are capped with soil and left for four years, growing stuff on them while they rot down.
Plus I feed the wildlife in winter and they nest in the trees and eat the unwanted insects during the summer. Of course I get the occasional infestation of greenfly/whitefly but pain old water from a high pressure spray gun sorts that out and planting things that deter such pests helps, like interspersing basil through out the greenhouses means the white fly go elsewhere.
I work full time and choose to spend my spare time growing wholesome food, trying to be self sufficient, rather than sitting in front of a TV (which I don't have) and having my intellegence insulted. I get fresh air and exercise for no extra cost.

[Feral007]

I'm not going with the derail. I'm sticking to the original question.

Salome, we are planting much in what we term a permaculture method. Which is mixing and matching of plants. There are no straight lines or rows for us. We are trying to do some coompaniion planting, but if you look up different books some will say two plants should not be put together, and others say they are good together.
It can be frustrating. If you are going to net your plants then you are obviously going to need to put them together. We don't net ours, we put flowers and strong smelling plants between to try and confuse the pests.........some are more easily confused
As for putting on fertilisers etc to replace things taken out, I tend to chop n drop as TS says. So when I pulled out the pumpkin vine, I chopped the vines and put them back on the gardenn bed. Same with the corn. So I am taking the fruit nutrients from the soil but I'm putting the greenery back into it.
I use teas made from horse manure on our property, comfrey and hay. We also mulch with hay. So far so good. We are trying to make a food forest. It's all trial, but things are growing in places that didn't do well before, and under hard conditions so I'm keeping on with it.