Anyone into permaculture and perennial vegetables?

[Noosner]

I'm reading a book about permaculture and wondered if anyone on the forum has had success with growing veg as part of a permaculture system?

If so, and even if not so, are there any perennial veg that you would particularly recommend?

I've got into square foot gardening in my garden this year, which seems to me to be a distant relation of permaculture. One month in, the ecology in my garden has improved and seems healthier than on my allotment, where I seem to be waging a losing battle against predators.

So I'd welcome any advice about how to start gradually.
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[teakdesk]

My daughter and partner (he a landscape gardener and them both keen veg growers) was asking me my thoughts on this last time they were here. Unfortunately I don't know much about it but as they are visiting again in a few weeks I ought to learn!!!

I just thought that what allotmentiers and veg gardeners have always done..... working with nature to produce a variety of produce.

Ponds, flowers, compost, manure, encouraging birds to eat slugs, netting to discourage birds, saving rain water, sowing a variety of seeds, sowing in succession... etc..... is what I thought it was all about. Didn't realise there were societies and things until recently.


Post your thoughts for my crib sheet when they visit please!

[veggiechicken]

I've dabbled with Permaculture (and Forest gardening) for several years. I also have a softspot for http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...veg_74563.html
There are other Grapes with the same interests

[veggiechicken]

Just to add, Permaculture is not only about gardening, its a way of life.
I've taken from it, the things that are achievable by me, its a pick and mix approach.

The name Perma-culture is derived from Permanent Agriculture. Why grow something that you have to resow every year, when you can grow a near-equivalent that is a perennial. For example, grow a perennial kale and pick it leaf by leaf - instead of a cabbage where you cut the whole plant and then have to sow some more. Or adjust your harvesting technique to prolong the cropping from that cabbage ( take individual leaves like cut-and-come) or cut the head but leave the stump to grow several more heads. By this method, I have cabbages that are growing on the same stalk for 3 years.

Apply this principle to everything in life - re-use, reduce, recycle, re-purpose.
Structure your garden around what you have. It may seem like a problem but adapt to it, not try to change it to your ideal. If you have a boggy area, don't try to drain it, grow plants that like wet conditions or have a pond.

Just a few thoughts - I'm no expert so don't ask me difficult questions

[Noosner]

Thanks for responding, TD and VC. And thanks for the link to that other thread, VC, which I've read with interest. Perhaps you'll find out more from your daughter & partner, TD! I'll certainly pass on anything I learn.

The book I'm reading about it is quite technical and daunting, but once the dust has settled. I think ideas may start to percolate through.

I could certainly make a start at lottie by introducing more perennial veg. I've already got globe artichokes and rhubarb so reckon I could multiply my GA's by division and also plant some Daubenton's kale. It seems hard to get hold of - I only found one place that sells it online and it's £7.50 for a plant plus £8 postage. Apparently you can't grow it from seed, only cuttings.

Burranyways... wonder if I could grow runner beans up globe artichoke stalks next year?? If you can grow them up sweetcorn, as in 3 sisters planting, I don't really see the difference.

[solway cropper]

I think many of us use variations of these principles without really considering any philosophical implications....it just seems to make sense. As VC says, it's about adapting to what suits your needs and abilities. When we moved here 8 years ago I simply adapted an existing garden to what I required. No drastic redesign as per makeover shows just subtle changes over time. It now produces all our fruit and most of our vegetables, and all without a lot of work (I have quite severe arthritis)

I love aliums and so I grow wild garlic (ramsons), chives, garlic chives and welsh onions, all perennials so that with the main onion crop I have that wonderful flavour all year round.

Fruit trees and bushes are the obvious permanent crops but they can give you far more than just an apple in your lunch box. We haven't bought jam for years and I make cordials, wine, cider and even vinegar from our harvest. It really does become a way of life although wives/husbands/partners may see it more in terms of an obsession!!

[veggiechicken]

...........plant some Daubenton's kale. It seems hard to get hold of - I only found one place that sells it online and it's £7.50 for a plant plus £8 postage. Apparently you can't grow it from seed, only cuttings.

You can grow it from seed - I have done so with seed I got from the Heritage Seed Library. The problem is not with growing from seed but of obtaining the seed! Can't remember why - its either that it doesn't flower often or doesn't set viable seed, therefore there's very little seed available.
Cottager's kale is another perennial kale that you may come across

[bario1]

What are you reading Noosner? Gaia's Garden?


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[Two_Sheds]

I love Gaia's Garden, it's in my top 3.

The others are One Straw Revolution & Sepp Holzer's permaculture

[Noosner]

What are you reading Noosner? Gaia's Garden?


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Bario - I'm reading 'The Vegetable Gardender's Guide to Permaculture' by Christopher Shein. Anyone come across it? It's a lovely book in terms of pictures and diagrams but I still find myself mystified as to how to implement the system, or even a little part of it.

Thanks for all your words of advice, everyone. Bit by bit would seem to be the answer. I will look at the Heritage Seed Library, VC. There is a place where I can order the plant but it would cost £15 inc postage which seems a lot! Have asked at the local garden centre but they hadn't come across it.

[Kirk]

Looked at the idea several years ago. Not sure you could adopt the full idea easily especially here in the UK. The principal came from 2 Australians in the late 70's ('78). Mention this in case people have the idea it is how the Mayans/Aztecs/NA Indians did things - it isn't.

Based on 7 layers and I realised that 1+2 were likely irrelevant here, these being the canopy and understory layer. We do not really have what could be called a canopy layer of trees to harvest from. Especially in the normal sized garden.

That left the other 5, starting at sort of shrub layer and working down. As many of our apple trees would fall into this catagory of height, that would appear to be a starting point.

There is a permaculture association and I think they talk of designs and possibly meetings or courses. maybe they have a sort of open (free) day at which you could visit and talk. Equally see if they have a stand at a show or something.

If I recall the North American Indians have/had a 3 layer sytems that could be followed and even perhaps tailored to an additional 4th layer for fruit trees I suppose.

Although I might agree on 7 layers, I am not 100% convinced of one on top of another. To me that implies planting veg under a tree, not alongside. Simply not sure of the productivity of the on top and most PC garden designs show the "layer" more like terraces, where each layer is in a effect different area.

On one site the PC garden design displayed is centered around a single mulberry tree - this one tree appears to be "the canopy layer". Sorry but one tree is not a canopy - well to me it isn't.

To me it seems that if you had a productive forest, and possibly tropical rain forest in Australia, then you could identify 7 levels within it - as was done, suppose you could equally argue 6 or 8 almost as easily. When the idea gets moved to "gardens" then it seems to end up of plants of 7 heights, not necessarily layered but more adjacent.

[Noosner]

Thanks for your thoughts, Kirk. I have also been wondering about the viability of planting veg under fruit trees and thinking it must be best to stagger the layers. It does say in the book I'm reading that in a UK-type climate, you would go for a south-facing gradation, so planting bigger stuff at the back, then slope things down. That seems like common sense to me now, not that I've managed to do it as I knew zilch five years ago when I got the allotment and so have loads of stuff in the wrong place. Thanks for your suggestion of course: have found a morning class on forest/mixed orchard gardening just up the road from here so will be going along to that at the end of August. I think as usual with ideas that are a bit extreme, I'll end up picking up a few pointers and apply them in some areas of the allotment.

[hellybore]

I am leaning towards the forest garden /permie approach on my plot, trying out some perennials but it's ealry days yet so I can't really say what will work. I am gowing sea kale, sea beet and Babington's leak as I have sandy soil so they should do well here. Also Good King Henry, oca (they were yummy last year), Japanese parsley and groundnut (apios americana). Oh, and Jerusalem Fartichokes! And lots of fruit. I am growing Nepalese rapberry under the fruit trees, as it is supposed to be good ground cover, and various mints. It's fun trying it all out.

[Noosner]

Sounds really good, Hellybore. I like the idea of some of those veg and it sounds as if the oca was a big hit with you. I may look into that and I'd certainly like to find something that would grow under fruit trees as I've got quite a few, therefore lots of space underneath. As you say it is fun experimenting!