GMO and non GMO or F1 etc seeds , question :)

[Kristen]

I do often wonder what some of these F1 plants have over the open pollinated ones other than the profit and "dependency" culture they create.

Indeed. Some I have no doubt about, particularly Supersweet dwarf (i.e. early/quick maturing) Sweetcorn.

Some F1 Tomatoes people have been self-saving seed for generations and noticed no deterioration of plant

Others ... well, like you said, seems that Marketing Department are doing at least as much work as the Breeders!

Here's a rundown of my thoughts, by variety

Aubergine - not noticed a difference
Asparagus - definitely need F1 all-male for fat stalks, and to prevent having Female plants that self seed over the plot.
Broad Bean - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
French Bean - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Runner Bean - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Beet, Leaf - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Beetroot - not grown F1, beetroot have been fine
Brocolli (Purple Sprouting) - not noticed a difference, maybe Early varieties are F1?
Brussels Sprouts - not grown F1, ought to try one
Cabbage - not grown F1, ought to try one
Carrot - not grown F1. Resistafly might be worthwhile? but I prefer to net my carrots against Fly
Cauliflower - had great success with Candid Charm F1. I wonder if "F1 Successional Harvest Mix" might be worth a try, instead of succession sowing?
Celeriac - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Celery - stopped growing that
Chinese Cabbage - only grown F1 I think, bred for early maturation and cold weather.
Courgette - Only grown F1, all have been fine. Yellow ones have been more tasty
Cucumber - only grown F1 (in greenhouse for all-female with no bitter male flowers). Over £1/seed (except in Sale)
Kohl Rabi - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Leek - Carlton F1 - seem to bulk up better, for me, than Mussleburgh
Lettuce - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Melon (greenhouse) - Most F1 disappointing and expensive, now only grow Sweetheart (which is F1 I think)
Pak Choi - can't remember if F1 or not
Parsley - not grown F1 (if F1 exists?)
Parsnip - Had better success with F1 Gladiator than Tender & True. Less canker, bigger roots.
Peas - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Pepper, Chillie - not grown F1, Chillies have been fine
Pepper, Sweet - F1 have definitely been superior (ripening faster, better fruit)
Squash, Butternut - Had more success with Open Polinated, but don't get any fruit in 50% of seasons. F1 [like Hunter and Cobnut] mature sooner, are smaller, but I don't think the taste is as good.
Swede - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)
Sweetcorn - F1 Supersweet every time Don't think there is Open Pollinated which will reliably ripen in UK every Summer??, although I think there are now some open pollinated Supersweet types
Tomato - F1 Shirley seems reliable, but not sure "better" than open pollinated. Gardeners Delight a long time favourite, is open pollinated.

Hopefully not left anything significant out?

[marchogaeth]

Actually, when you get down to it, there aren't that many seeds offered as F1 which sort of makes me wonder even more what most of them are for. Wouldn't it be great if the seed sellers said thsi is F1 because......... so people could make an informed choice?

Real Seeds are offering SweetCorn Seed a super sweet open pollinated this year. I haven't bought any as still have seeds to use.

Courgettes I don't think there is anything to gain from F1 on my site unless I want a self fertile one for very early production in the tunnel.

This is not an advert for RS but they also do mixes of spring and autumn caulis for variety and harvest times. I can also recommend their open pollinated cucumbers.

I am going to stop now, Kristen because as I look down your list and go to RS they do have a lot of options there. I also like how quite often they will tell you how their plants behave that is not like F1 and as I say it's not meant to be an advert for them and I know other seed suppliers are available!

[Penellype]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which I am sure plays a part in F1s being "better" than the parent varieties is something called hybrid vigour. There appears to be an advantage in being heterozygous for some traits - think of the difference between a mongrel dog and pure pedigree animals, which are often weaker and more prone to sickness.

More info Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[poly]

I was curious and my question was specific to peas as I read the following site pages

Daughter of the Soil: What do you get when you cross a purple-podded pea with a yellow-podded pea?
Daughter of the Soil: How to breed your own garden peas

As you say you have to intervene, but if you only intervene the once what was the knock on effect and how long would it carry on down the line. That was all

For quite some time, from each F2 you would have unique seeds and if all individually planted and followed, the foundation of many new lines/varieties.

Last year I made several intentional pea crosses, I think one was Caruther’s Purple Podded x Golden Sweet. The plants I grow this year from the F1 seed I’d expect to all be similar. Only from the next generation and beyond (F2’s + from saved seed), would I expect variations in pod colour and type of pods. From these I’d be able to select for the traits I’m interested in and grown them in the next generation. Once a recessive gene is expressed in a plant (here a red podded pea) it should be captured for the next generation. But it would still be a number of years selecting from the self-pollinating peas before a new pea variety would finally become stable at around F7 and even then I think there is a very small chance of an off type.

[Thelma Sanders]

Swede - not grown F1 (not sure there are any?)

yes, Tweed is F1 and
resistant to club root

Firestorm and Moonlight runner beans are runner bean/French bean hybrids - are they F1? Doesn't say so on the blurb or the packets *confused.com*

[Kristen]

Tweed is F1 (Swede)
resistant to club root

Ah yes, that makes sense, being a Brassica; thanks

[Alison]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which I am sure plays a part in F1s being "better" than the parent varieties is something called hybrid vigour. There appears to be an advantage in being heterozygous for some traits - think of the difference between a mongrel dog and pure pedigree animals, which are often weaker and more prone to sickness.

More info Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry Penellype, I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying, are you saying that F1s are stronger for being pure or weaker? Certainly with mongrels they usually don't have the same in bred health issues that blight the pedigrees which is why the pedigrees often suffer from anticipated illness and die relatively young in comparison. I did have a look at the link but found it a bit confusing but I am quite tired today . I know that one of the claims made by seed manufacturers is that the F1s are stronger but you do miss out on the advantage of developing to my conditions, unlike OP seeds which I grow and save on an annual basis.

Some of the advantages are different for commercial and private growers and most seeds are produced for large scale farming where the crops are harvested at one time and by machinery, they want gluts. We don't though so actually many of the so called positive developments are to the detriment of the home grower

[Penellype]

Sorry Penellype, I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying, are you saying that F1s are stronger for being pure or weaker? Certainly with mongrels they usually don't have the same in bred health issues that blight the pedigrees which is why the pedigrees often suffer from anticipated illness and die relatively young in comparison. I did have a look at the link but found it a bit confusing but I am quite tired today . I know that one of the claims made by seed manufacturers is that the F1s are stronger but you do miss out on the advantage of developing to my conditions, unlike OP seeds which I grow and save on an annual basis.

Some of the advantages are different for commercial and private growers and most seeds are produced for large scale farming where the crops are harvested at one time and by machinery, they want gluts. We don't though so actually many of the so called positive developments are to the detriment of the home grower

F1s would usually be stronger - that is one of their advantages. The point about F1 is that although they are all exactly the same (in relation to the traits under consideration), they are not "pure" in the sense that you woud use that term for a pedigree animal. They are exactly the opposite. They have hybrid vigour because the traits under consideration have both genes (one on each chromasome), ie they are heterozygous. This can only really be understood when you remember that each plant has 2 copies of each chromasome so there are 2 "slots" for each gene. One of the chromasomes comes from the pollen (male) the other comes from the ovum (female) so any seed made from this cross will always have one gene from each parent. Since the parents breed true, they have 2 copies of the same thing in each slot, so all the pollen grains will contain say the dominant gene and all the ova will contain the recessive one, meaning that all seeds will contain one of each (so they will all be the same, but they won't breed true).

You are quite right that some of the F1 strains are bred to suit commercial growers, who want all the fruit to ripen at exactly the same time for instance, whereas the gardener wants a nice long cropping period. Like anything else it is a case of trial and error and finding out what works for you. I grow a mixture of F1 and non F1 varieties - if I want a green courgette I am happy with common old green bush, but if I want a yellow one I choose an F1 variety.

F1 are expensive because they have to be created in carefully controlled conditions to avoid contamination, and because there is no way of creating an F1 variety that breeds true.

[Alison]

That makes sense although (as ever!) it's more complex than that as it depends on, for example, if the plant is an in or out breeder - it's enough to make your head explode .

Re the production of F1s, I'd say it was pretty much all of them that are bred for commercial growers, that's where the money is as obviously they'll buy far more but some of the advantages can benefit us more than others, eg club root resistant varieties if you suffer with that. Just fir interest why do you choose an F1 for yellow courgettes, am sure I've grown OP ones before but can't remember the variety.

I'd agree that there is additional cost in production of F1s but as a few other people have said, they often take advantage of it too and mark up more than strictly necessary.

[Penellype]

The F1 yellow courgette I grow is "Goldmine" - I first tried it last year. It has 2 advantages over any other yellow courgette that I have seen - its "parthenocarpic" (will self pollinate without needing insects) and it has "spineless" stems. I certainly found it set fruit well, although I am not quite so sure about the claim to be spineless - fewer spines than average would be a better description (a bit like the thornless gooseberry bush I have).

Anyway I liked Goldmine, which I thought tasted excellent and looked stunning, although yields were somewhat lower than the trusty green bush.