What is permaculture about??

[muddled]

Permaculture doesn't mean Forest gardening. You can use Permaculture principles in anywhere, even in pots.

I think that's a very important point.
Forest gardens are usually much larger scale than is possible in an allotment garden, usually provide firewood, animal accomodation, building materials and medicinal plants...bio fuel and so on.

I doubt anyone is planning to do all those things on your allotment site!

Try not to be sidetracked too much by the word permaculture. The most important thing to do is to ensure that potential plotholders are clear on what YOU expect from them.

A good example of this happened at my site.
My neighbour and I both covered our plots with black plastic when we took them on last spring.
We both are interested in permaculture.
She strimmed, dug out couch roots and covered.
I carefully read my plot rules (especially the part that says minimum 1 third in production at all times in year one, 2 thirds in year two) I talked with my lottie secretary....I dumped a load of manure on top of the couch grass, covered in plastic and planted through.

My neighbour got two weeks notice to 'cultivate or quit'
I got congratulated on the amount of produce in my first season.

It wasn't permaculture that was the difference.
It was communication and expectations.

[Mark Lottie]

I'm bang into permaculture and am considering doing Geoff Lawton's online design course that starts enrolling on February 7 (geofflawton.com). I have many reasons but the main one is to gain knowledge and enjoy the experience of others for when I eventually get my farm.

It's hard to define in a single line or even paragraph but I'll try. It's about creating a permanent culture/garden/farm that works with nature to provide positive solutions for the grower; using organic techniques to create self sufficiency.

If I recall properly it's Bill Mollison of Australia who wrote the original book and concept, but Sepp Holzer was doing something similar already on his mountain farm in the Alps in Austria. Both write about concepts that are general and can be used on any farm but Mollison is most concerned with permaculture in hot and dry conditions and Holzer in mountainous and acidic conditions.

For permaculture principles used in the UK look up Patrick Whitefield and Martin Crawford. Crawford is more concerned with agroforestry which is just one component of Permaculture and Whitefield has a load of decent videos. You've also got Mike Feingold and his permaculture allotment - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M

For permaculture for other areas I recomend permies.com run by the enigmatic Paul Wheaton. He is a funny guy and has a load of podcasts and articles for everything from eco-building, grey water processing, solar energy to marketing your produce as well as the planting side of things.

The applications of Permaculture on my allotment I'm trying:

-Started planting an orchard that I will interplant underneath with appropriate plants (dynamic accumulators, pest repellers, beneficial insect attractors, nitrogen fixers, pollinating insect attractors, funghi, annual climbers and ground cover) and mulch well. This is a polyculture with a bit of agro forestry.
-A Hugelkultur. This is where you bury logs and smaller brush under a load of soil. It breaks down over time and provides nutrients, soil structure and a home for beneficial insects in the earth. I'll use this for herbs, strawberry and lettuces
-Mulch the hell out of everything rather than weeding
-Plan it so I never have to stand on the annual beds or rotavate/dig them and thus killing all the life under the soil.
-Try more perennial plants and herbs
-Leaving a section of the plot to go (more) wild to let nature do its thing and provide homes for animals.
-Stop using glyphosate/Roundup

I'm still using slug killer for seedlings in the ground but using one more friendly to wildlife


Just finished "Sepp Holzer's Permaculture: A Practical Guide to Small-Scale, Integrative Farming and Gardening" and it's the best book I've read on the subject so far. Martin Crawford's "Creating a Forest Garden" is the best book on agroforestry I've seen and is chock full of suitable perennial plants.

I have to say though, once you start immersing yourself in the online permaculture community it does seem a bit cult-y with the way everyone talks about how you should do a PDC (Permaculture Design Course) and then start teaching others about it.

[Alison]

They may not "allotment" in any sort of traditional way.

You should clarify what your allotment rules on cultivation expect of plot holders.

Permaculture usually entails trees - something many allotment sites ban.
Most areas I have seen are much more unstructured than allotments should be.

What makes you think allotments should be structured? Suppose it depends on what you mean by structured but there's nothing in my agreement about that. Some bits of my plot are very regimented and in rows but other bits much less so and the wild flower / pond area is definitely what I would think of as unstructured but is very beneficial to the balance of my plot. To me if you're growing and harvesting for food on your plot then it's fine regardless of how you do it So long as you don't cause excessive shadowing on other plots. Oh, trees fine here too again as long as they don't shade your neighbours. Every day I celebrate the lack of rules on my plot.

[Guest]

What makes you think allotments should be structured?

When I had an allotment I had a damaged bath on it. One day one of the site managers told me they had been trying to contact me (I don't think so) and that I had to box it in and hide it. When I asked why, I was sheepishly told the farmer was not happy about it. (It was a private allotment so the land was rented)
The same manager on another occasion said wasn't it lovely seeing all the sheds up.....? There had been a bulk order done for people who wanted them and the sheds had to be in a certain place on the plots. Personally I thought it was horrible as it made everything all regimented and not my idea of allotments. I got the impression from some that they were being used as some sort of status symbol rather than growing goodies



Everyone has different ideas and opinions. Best to clarify from the start IMO

[alldigging]

What makes you think allotments should be structured? Suppose it depends on what you mean by structured but there's nothing in my agreement about that. Some bits of my plot are very regimented and in rows but other bits much less so and the wild flower / pond area is definitely what I would think of as unstructured but is very beneficial to the balance of my plot. To me if you're growing and harvesting for food on your plot then it's fine regardless of how you do it So long as you don't cause excessive shadowing on other plots. Oh, trees fine here too again as long as they don't shade your neighbours. Every day I celebrate the lack of rules on my plot.

Most permaculture I've seen ends up looking very wild - because that's sort of the intention.

https://ordinary2extraordinarydotcom...5/img_7156.jpg

There's a guy Mike in Bristol who has a permaculture allotment plot and I can seee bits too quite conventional but then there's a huge bit that looks really wild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M

You need to look at the site's rules - how do they equate to permaculture.
How do the potential tenants think their ideas will fit in with the site.

There's some nice near permaculture gardens out there but quite a few that aren't.

[Two_Sheds]

All I can find are links to organisations

you need to click through the menu, sometimes

https://knowledgebase.permaculture.org.uk/principles

[Two_Sheds]

I suspect that harvests are lower because of the competition for light and soil nutrients.

That's a common understanding, but happily it's not true. Different plants have different requirements, and also have their roots at different depths.
As to water shortages, close density actually keeps water in the soil, whereas lots of bare brown soil leads to drought, esp. if you're hoeing as well

I grow a full range of crops, and planted very closely, and very successfully. Pics in FB link below

[Two_Sheds]

I am sceptical too about the relevance of such an undertaking on an allotment site

well lots of us do it and it doesn't interfere with anyone else's allotments

dig up and destroy weeds, ... dig over the soil regularly to prevent pests and diseases

with respect, 'digging over' doesn't prevent pests or diseases

I have a 'natural' approach to weeds, well it's more of a "waste not, want not" approach: weeds are full of nutrients that my crops need, so I return them all to the soil, usually as a mulch (I pull them up before they flower, then chop roughly, and just drop on the soil surface. They're quick to become part of the soil, and with close planting you don't see a big ole messy mulch)

[Two_Sheds]

Its all to confusing for me. ... Keep it Simple

Simple is good:

- waste nothing
- re/use everything
- return to the soil those nutrients you remove (in the form of weeds & spent crops)

[Two_Sheds]

Permaculture usually entails trees

mmmmm, no. Forest gardening is trees

[Thelma Sanders]

Then I'm confused because most of the Permaculture sites/youtube links I've looked at include trees in their design as the tallest layer, protecting the lower layers (either from too much sun or cold winds, whatever)

[veggiechicken]

Depends on how much space you have to grow. if you don't have much (like an allotment) you would miss out the bigger plants and concentrate on the low growers.

[Two_Sheds]

most of the Permaculture sites/youtube links I've looked at include trees in their design

sure, they can do, but it's not compulsory

"Permaculture ...In a high rise flat that might be a window box with lettuces"

"Permaculture designs should always try to incorporate a wide variety of plants, animals and approaches.
if one crop fails, another may succeed.
Polycultures (agriculturral systems with many plants),... are now proven to be more productive overall and resilient to weather, pests and other factors, than monocultures "

[muddled]

Then I'm confused because most of the Permaculture sites/youtube links I've looked at include trees

I find, in any and every situation, that jargon becomes infuriating and permaculture is no exception!

In a nutshell, permaculture is about using clever design to make the most of what you have (or can have).
So, got trees? Great, don't cut them all down to make a flat field for cereals. Consider using them as the canopy of a forest garden instead.
Live on a mountainside? terrific! Sepp whats-his-name has designed a fantastic system of terracing and seed bombs that could make that work for you, mate.

(I find it helps to imagine an impossibly perky Austrailian is explaining it )

Got an allotment? Try mixed beds, a herb spiral, chop and drop mulching, edible green manure, a chicken tractor, gravity fed watering, hugelkultur (I probably spelt that wrong)

I would consider the 'munty frame' to be the epitome of permaculture design.
It is a considered design, it reduces labour while maximising yield without expensive outlay.
And it is perfect for use on an allotment.
I am soooo making one of those this spring

[Alison]

When I had an allotment I had a damaged bath on it. One day one of the site managers told me they had been trying to contact me (I don't think so) and that I had to box it in and hide it. When I asked why, I was sheepishly told the farmer was not happy about it. (It was a private allotment so the land was rented)
The same manager on another occasion said wasn't it lovely seeing all the sheds up.....? There had been a bulk order done for people who wanted them and the sheds had to be in a certain place on the plots. Personally I thought it was horrible as it made everything all regimented and not my idea of allotments. I got the impression from some that they were being used as some sort of status symbol rather than growing goodies

[ATTACH=CONFIG]52925[/ATTACH]

Everyone has different ideas and opinions. Best to clarify from the start IMO

Most permaculture I've seen ends up looking very wild - because that's sort of the intention.

https://ordinary2extraordinarydotcom...5/img_7156.jpg

There's a guy Mike in Bristol who has a permaculture allotment plot and I can seee bits too quite conventional but then there's a huge bit that looks really wild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M

You need to look at the site's rules - how do they equate to permaculture.
How do the potential tenants think their ideas will fit in with the site.

There's some nice near permaculture gardens out there but quite a few that aren't.

Both these posts make me sad, am glad that my lottie site doesn't have pointless rules about what you can and can't do on the site. Really don't understand what that has to do with allotmenteering.