Why the secrecy?

[Potstubsdustbins]

I grow 6 Sungold every year as I have a sweet tooth.

The seeds are that cheap £1.29 for 10 and the plants so prolific approx. 120 toms per vine I wouldn't take the chance on saved seed.

Someone somewhere has put a lot of work into producing this hybrid and I am perfectly willing to pay for their time and effort, exactly the same as I expect to be paid for my work.

[solway cropper]

I still think we are being fooled

You're not being fooled if you don't buy them!

[libbyloulou]

There seem to be plenty of hobbyists who specialist in breeding a specific species. I think the apple Discover was a chance find in someone's garden?

I haven't got the patience though ...

I believe Bramley was a chance discovery.

[Two_Sheds]

When you spend a lot of time and money on something it's nice to get a little bit back.

It's not just nice, it's essential.
If a grower doesn't want to buy F1, they can buy OP, and save their own seed.
I have a mix of both: when I want uniformity or guaranteed results, I go F1

[Two_Sheds]

I save seed from Sungold grow them and still get Sungold toms 9 years in a row
Anyone else tried ?

Yes, same here. Tomatoes tend to come true because they don't rely on insects for pollination, they self pollinate. How To Save Your Own Seed at Home

Brassicas and squash are much more promiscuous, as are delphinium, aquilegia etc, and are visited by many insects, which share lots of pollen from miles around. So, you can't guarantee "pure" babies unless you hand pollinate and seal up the flower afterwards.

[TrialAndError]

We do know the parents of new apple trees. How come? Also, i woul assume that the parents of a tomato plant woul be in he patent which protects the developers rights.

[beeterforit]

Its a bit like dog breeding where the pedigrees all look the same and have the same faults
Where as mongrels are tougher live longer less diseases from sharing genes the natural way
Still waiting for an F1 which is any better than a non-F1

[Two_Sheds]

Where as mongrels are tougher live longer less diseases from sharing genes the natural way

Hmmmmmm, debatable, can you show evidence?

Pedigree dogs are selectively bred, sure, for certain attributes, whether physical (looks) or temperamental. After having mutts for 40years, I bought a French Bulldog, despite the scare stories: "short, fat and out of breath". My two breathe fine, are slim and run about like loons.
Their temperament is what I chose them for: typically non aggressive, not terrier (hunters) , affectionate, don't need long walks. They've been bred, like pugs, purely to be companions, not for speed, hunting, guarding or anything else. Their small size makes them easy to handle and transport/carry, they can live in apartments happily, no need for a big garden, they don't eat so much as big dogs either.

Staffy: loyal, brave, typically good with children, not so good with other dogs

Springer spaniels: great at tracking & finding stuff, eg drugs

GSD/Malinois: brave, fierce, used as guard/police dogs

Labrador: calm, intelligent, good guide dogs. Etc etc

The best examples are chosen to breed from, to continue the line of desirable qualities.
Responsible breeders won't breed from dogs with health or temper problems, not something that your backstreet staffy breeder knows nor cares about. Incidentally, rescue centres are full of mongrels & crossbreeds, not pedigrees

It's the same with plants: you breed selectively for certain attributes, eg size, vigour, uniformity. Heirloom gardeners typically grow for flavour, show-growers for size.
If you want to grow great big onions, you start with seed from great big onions.

I'm a fan of OP veg myself, and I select the best of my plants to save seed from. If a plant bolts early, or won't ripen soon enough, then I don't save its seed.

[beeterforit]

Hmmmmmm, debatable, can you show evidence?

Ask any vet

Dogs are now being mixed bred ex cockerpoodles etc
Designer dogs which pedigrees are the top end. There still exists a lot of snobbery that's why the mutts get third world status at rescue centres

Back to growing......The F1 parsnip Gladiator is a top seller Why because of the Fi badge
There are lots of better ones out there
Which will over time become extinct.........if we do not save seed

[Kristen]

We do know the parents of new apple trees

Its quite possible that F1 don't have nameable parents as such. F1 require two pure-bred parent lines, which are then cross bred. The parents may (no longer) be any specific variety.

i woul assume that the parents of a tomato plant woul be in he patent which protects the developers rights.

Hugely expensive to acquire a patent, and a Patent can't be obtained for just crossing different varieties (no inventive step involved), so that leaves only Plant Variety Right. I don't know how that compares cost-wise to a Patent, but I expect it is still expensive. I can't remember seeing any F1 seed labelled with a PVR?? (as distinct from vegetatively reproduced perennials, where I do see PVR indications quite often) perhaps there is something about F1 seed that prevents filing for PVR? (it not being stable in future generations for example)

It may well be that not filing for a Patent, and keeping the information a "Trade Secret" is a better business model - certainly cheaper than applying for a patent / PVR.

Still waiting for an F1 which is any better than a non-F1

Clubroot resistant Brassicas? Diito for things resistant to blight, carrot root fly etc.
Varieties of Sweetcorn that will mature in a poor English Summer? Similarly for Winter Squash where most O/P varieties will fail in a poor Summer

Do you really claim that these are not improvements?

Another key objective of F1 is uniformity although I agree that may not be relevant to an amateur gardener who would prefer to extend the harvest but being able to harvest a crop all-at-once because they all come ripe at the same time is of significant importance to agriculture.

[Kristen]

The F1 parsnip Gladiator is a top seller Why because of the Fi badge
There are lots of better ones out there

Have your grown them side by side in order to make that assumption?

I grow Gladiator, not because it has an F1 badge, but because I have grown it alongside the varieties I used to grow (like Tender and True) and Gladiator always performed better. Bigger roots, less or no canker. Over 4 or 5 years I grew Tender & True "just in case" the Gladiator failed ... now I only grow Gladiator as I got to the point where the Tender and True were left at the end of the season and mostly ended up on the compost heap because they were inferior.

[beeterforit]

I grow Tender and true also Guernsey parsnips and am very pleased with the results


Also Flyaway carrots will get attacked there is no carrot that's fly proof or clubroot proof
seed available but many claims none will convert me as to the worth of an F1 as they say "each to their own"

[Thelma Sanders]

Gladiator parsnips for me as well.

The clubroot resistant brassicas are the only ones that I can grow successfully in some of my beds!

I just choose the seeds that best suit my purpose, some are OP some are F1, I don't get hung up on the idea that OPs are better than F1s - or vice versa.

[Kristen]

none will convert me as to the worth of an F1 as they say "each to their own"

I've no problem with that at all and I agree with your earlier point that it is important to maintain the diverse gene bank of open pollinated varieties. Forgive me if I have misunderstood your post, but it appears you have not grown F1 side-by-side for comparison but are making assumptions and recommendations nonetheless?

[beeterforit]

I have grown many F1 s over the years as well as OPs for comparison
I still do not think that for the prices there really justified
All the big name seed merchants over- emphasize the attributes and expect silly prices some seeds 50p + Their long term aim is to get growers out of the good habit of seed saving and buy seeds every year
The bonus of OP is that plants will adapt to the environment they grow in I select my best runner beans every year and they improve
That's my whole point