Crimson Crush tomatoes

[TrialAndError]

Last year I grew two Crimson Crush tomato plants, both freebies from Dobbies. I received them very late in the season but they did produce some very tasty tomatoes. Their main claim to fame is that they are resistant to blight and so far that claim seems to be true.

At the end of last year I saved some seeds, these are meant to be an F1 variety but you never know!. I have four very healthy looking plants grown from those saved seeds this year.

So far, it's looking like the claim to be F1 is true. Three of the plants look perfectly normal but one has decidedly non-tomato looking leaves. I know some varieties produce these types of leaves but not the "original" F1 Crimson Crush.

I will report back later in the season because I really did like the texture and taste of the original tomatoes But don't hold your breath, it is beginning to look like plants grown from Crimson Crush seeds will not grow true to type.

[Penellype]

If they were F1 plants you are almost certain to get anything but Crimson Crush, I'm afraid.

[sparrow100]

I wouldn't expect them to be Crimson Crush in the F2 generation, sorry. I have shelled out on seed this year - I figure it's worth it on my blight-ridden site. I liked them last year, really tasty toms and they certainly withstood blight.

[poly]

TrialAndError, it's interesting you have noted a different leaf type, is it a potato leaf type / shape?

I've just sown some Crimson Crush F2 seeds, I'm hoping to find some that are good outside doers similar to Crimson Crush, as they did quite well in my garden.

[poly]

Here's a young tomato with potato leaves.

[purplekat]

Glad to hear they did well, last year my toms all died from blight before I got anything off them. This year I've got a couple of grafted crimson crush plants that the garden centre were selling off, and also sown some Mountain Magic seeds so hoping for better luck with those.
Ideally you'd take 'armpit' cuttings and attempt to overwinter to get seedlings from an F1, but it's always fun seeing what comes up

edit. Found this which has a bit of info on the parentage Crimson Crush - Growing Food Saving Seeds

[MarkPelican]

I realise that F1 hybrids don't breed true, but if that is the case where do all the varieties come from and why do heritage varieties run true? I suppose the more accurate statement must be that a (very) small percentage will run true but too small to be reliable. Also I suppose with Crimson Crush you won't know even if they look the same unless they are resistant to early and late blight.

Here's information on Mountain Magic https://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/pr...tain-Magic.pdf
I must admit I wasn't overly impressed with Crimson Crush last year but I'm trying both them and Mountain Magic at the allotment this year (assuming it warms up)

[sparrow100]

I realise that F1 hybrids don't breed true, but if that is the case where do all the varieties come from and why do heritage varieties run true?

F1 is only the first generation of a cross. If you want to stabilise it, you grow a large number of the F2 seeds and see which of those have the traits you want to preserve. Cull the rest. Keep doing this for (I think) 7 generations and you should have a stable variety - this will then be an open-pollinated variety if my memory of GCSE biology holds true.

People like Tom Wagner or the guys at Artisan seeds spend years breeding new tomatoes till they are stable.

I personally think it is cheaper for seed companies to breed only to the F1 stage, where they can virtually guarantee certain attributes AND if people like them a) they have to keep buying seed and b) most won't bother to de-hybridise them.

Sorry if this is a bit waffly...

[maverick451]

I think its worth a go

I remember watching a youtube video about new strawberry varieties, basically all they do is cross 2 parent plants and grow out all the seeds to see if any have promise.

[Martin H]

I personally think it is cheaper for seed companies to breed only to the F1 stage, where they can virtually guarantee certain attributes AND if people like them a) they have to keep buying seed and b) most won't bother to de-hybridise them.

I expect you're right. The F1's do have the extra advantage of hybrid vigour, though; I understand that after enough generations to create a stable variety, this advantage tends to disappear.

[Martin H]

I think its worth a go

I remember watching a youtube video about new strawberry varieties, basically all they do is cross 2 parent plants and grow out all the seeds to see if any have promise.

Yes, strawberry breeders have the advantage that they don't need to create a stable variety because the first generation plant can be propagated from runners (or micropropagation if you're a commercial breeder).

[AkionTotocha]

Why can't we on the grapevine try and stabilise some tomatoes? I don't mind saving seed and growing a few and I know a lot of people enjoy stabilising F1's, if we all pitched in together I'm sure we could stabilise something. For example, Shirley;

I think most people are growing Shirley, so if those who were interested saved seeds from our Shirley's, grow them and cull the non-Shirley F2's. Someone from the people growing the F2's would get an identical/ near identical F2 Shirley. Save seeds from that and then give them out as part of a seed swap.

Eventually it would get to an OP Shirlish and they could go into the seed parcel (VSP?) or individuals could save seeds so the Shirlish's became strong for the local climate of each grower.

We all enjoy saving seed I'm sure, and there are some F1's we're all/most are growing, so it could be started this year?

Even F1's have certain odd flukes, they're not completely stable just "stable enough" to be sold - all my Shirley's have purple/red under their leaves except one that's entirely green, so I wouldn't save seed from that one.

[MarkPelican]

Akion, its worth a try (except I don't grow Shirley because its an F1). My reading about F1 hybrids is that the biggest expense is maintaining the parent varieties which (apparently) are usually weedy and not very prolific.

I was interested by Martin H's comment that the hybrid vigour breeds out. Surely when that happens, the variety is not the original F1. Anybody's knowledge extend to why F1s are more vigorous?

[maverick451]

. Anybody's knowledge extend to why F1s are more vigorous?

Are they though? last year I grew about a dozen or so F1 varieties and none were any more prolific than the open polinated Gardeners delight

the earliest was outdoor girl, yet another open polinated variety.

[MarkPelican]

I was following up on Martin H's comment. I agree that different varieties are differently vigorous but the comment was:

"The F1's do have the extra advantage of hybrid vigour, though; I understand that after enough generations to create a stable variety, this advantage tends to disappear."

I wondered what caused hybrid vigour and (following on) whether Heritage varieties actually are F1s each year but with a dominant trait from the parent.

After posting, I read this article https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?pid=710 which explains it to some extent.