F1

[Small pumpkin]

Firstly I'd like to apologise .....................I've been thinking!

On a different thread F1's have been mentioned. No doubt on many many threads over the years.

I was wondering if it would be possible for us to compile a list of F1's?


Especially as I'm now starting on the slippery slope of seed saving . I think it might be quite useful. As also mentioned on the other thread, not all companies agree or give the information on F1's.

( I do like a good minefield , why can't they just keep it simple )

[Jay-ell]

Firstly I'd like to apologise .....................I've been thinking!

On a different thread F1's have been mentioned. No doubt on many many threads over the years.

I was wondering if it would be possible for us to compile a list of F1's?

Erm, no probably not. Try a large proportion of the seeds available

Especially as I'm now starting on the slippery slope of seed saving . I think it might be quite useful. As also mentioned on the other thread, not all companies agree or give the information on F1's.

( I do like a good minefield , why can't they just keep it simple )

They'll tell you it's and F1 and mark it on the packet - they won't usually tell you what the parent plants were as they would then loose their monopoly and investment in the development of that particular F1

As far as I see it wether a seed is F1 or not only really matters if you plan to save seed from the plants. If you do you want an open pollinated variety. If you don't then F1 seeds can often give better performance.

Contrary to what some scare mongers say F1 DOES NOT MEAN genetically modified. It means First Generation hybrid or cross. Bit like Labridoodles aren't GM but are crosses.

[veggiechicken]

Contrary to what some scare mongers say F1 DOES NOT MEAN genetically modified. It means First Generation hybrid or cross. Bit like Labridoodles aren't GM but are crosses.

...........and, like Labridoodles, their puppies (F2) won't look identical to the parents unless you keep "crossing" the same combination of parents.
For example my dog, Bess, is said to be a Cavachon F1 (a cross of Cavalier and Bichon Frise).
Her 5 pups (father/fathers unknown) are the F2 generation. They were all slightly different with 3 having the Bichon curly coats and 2 with Cavalier coats. Bess has white fur, none of her pups were white.
So F2s are still dogs/tomatoes/chillies but may not have some of the characteristics you liked from the F1. They are no longer Cavachons.
If Bess's F2 pups had their own pups they would be F3 and different again.

I can understand F1s when I relate it to dogs but a packet of F1 tomato seeds is just overpriced nonsense. Much like paying through the nose for a designer dog like a Cavachon/Labridoodle when its really a mongrel.

[Thelma Sanders]

Erm, no probably not. Try a large proportion of the seeds available

They'll tell you it's and F1 and mark it on the packet.

Another trick is to tell you it's F1 when it is not (it's actually open pollinated) so they can charge high prices and keep you buying their seed. This really does make me cross!!
American sites seem to be more honest with their labelling, so hopefully the seed you are thinking about saving will be on one of their sites for you to check. Real seeds only sell OP seed if you fancy any of their stock
Good luck...

[burnie]

I'm a bit of a mongrel myself, part Viking, part Brit living in the Pictish part of Scotland, so I know how an Fi must feel like lol.

[Jay-ell]

American sites seem to be more honest with their labelling

Although it's mostly American sites that try to make you think that F1=GM

Real seeds only sell OP seed if you fancy any of their stock
Good luck...

They also freely give advice on how not to buy from them again and save your own seed.

[veggiechicken]

I'm a bit of a mongrel myself, part Viking, part Brit living in the Pictish part of Scotland, so I know how an Fi must feel like lol.

We're all mongrels! Better than being a Designed baby

As an F! example of confusion - I'm growing Beit/Beth Alpha cucumbers this year. Some sites sye they're F1 and sell you 10 seeds, others don't mention F1 and sell you 25 seeds for the same money or less. I probably won't try to save seeds from them as there are other cukes in the GH but you can guess which company I'll buy from.

[Mitzi]

...........and, like Labridoodles, their puppies (F2) won't look identical to the parents unless you keep "crossing" the same combination of parents.
For example my dog, Bess, is said to be a Cavachon F1 (a cross of Cavalier and Bichon Frise).
Her 5 pups (father/fathers unknown) are the F2 generation. They were all slightly different with 3 having the Bichon curly coats and 2 with Cavalier coats. Bess has white fur, none of her pups were white.
So F2s are still dogs/tomatoes/chillies but may not have some of the characteristics you liked from the F1. They are no longer Cavachons.
If Bess's F2 pups had their own pups they would be F3 and different again.

I can understand F1s when I relate it to dogs but a packet of F1 tomato seeds is just overpriced nonsense. Much like paying through the nose for a designer dog like a Cavachon/Labridoodle when its really a mongrel.

I don't think this is right, because of the "father(s) unknown" bit. Bess's pups would only be F2 if she had been mated with another Cavachon F1, otherwise they are Cavachon x unknown, which is not the same as Cavachon F2.

[veggiechicken]

If you were growing F1 chillies/tomatoes/whatever they might have crossed with anything!
I don't pretend to understand all this seed stuff or dogs really but I'm trying to say that a plant grown from a saved F1 seed will have different characteristics to the original seed because the mix is unknown.

[Snoop Puss]

To go back to Jay-ell's first comment: there are too many F1s for it to be feasible to draw up a comprehensive list, SP. Plus, new ones are constantly being added.

[Jay-ell]

It's simply down to how passive and dominant genes from 2 different Homozygous P1 populations result in a heterozygous population in their F1 offspring which may look homozygous because of dominate traits however further breeding results in the F2 randomly inheriting dominant and passive traits from either parent resulting in a heterozygous population which looks heterozygous.

Simples.


OK, has anyone ever had S1 seeds?

[Thelma Sanders]

No, don't grow strange 'herbs'

[Small pumpkin]

Do you ever wish you'd just kept your mouth shut? .

[veggiechicken]

Frequently - but it doesn't stop me opening it.

Maybe there's scope for a list of commonly grown F1 varieties or those that are unclear.
Seeds that are often offered up to the Seed circles and are rejected because they're F1.

As an example, Sungold tomatoes - most sites say they're F1 but there are a few that don't (simply seed for one.)

Deliberate obfuscation? (love that word so had to say it)

[Mitzi]

Supposing you have two varieties of the same plant, one has big showy flowers but puny fruit. One has pathetic ugly flowers but big tasty fruit. You cross them and manage to get an F1 which has big showy flowers and big tasty fruit - bingo!

You keep the F1 isolated so it can't cross with anything else, it can only pollinate itself. So the resulting seeds will be F2. However, (depending on which traits are dominant and which are recessive) it is likely that some of the F2s will resemble one parent (big flower no fruit,) some will resemble the other parent (small flower big fruit,) some will have small flowers and no fruit, and if you're really lucky some will still have big flowers and big fruit. It's quite hit and miss, though, and most often you end up with small flowers and small fruit.

So for commercial seed producers, they will keep doing the original cross over and over because (assuming the varieties you started from were stable and not crosses themselves) you will reliably get the big flowers and big fruit every time.