Who on the Vine wants to keep Bees?

[Snadger]

Really fancy this beekeeping lark mesel! and the local council are looking favourably upon it for allotments.

Quite expensive though and the course was a half day Sat & Sun for two weekends. Can't really afford the time.

Tried the alternative of reading a couple of books but to be honest its still as clear as mud.

I just jumped into chicken rearing without any problems but have a feeling that beekeeeping is a little more contrived?

Anyway.......maybe next year...............

[BigShot]

Snadger...
"Expensive" - not with the cheap way.

Build a hive with almost no carepntry skill for about £20. Bees are free if you get the hive together this month and catch a swarm (either going ang getting one or putting out bait hives) over the next few months.

Most of the books you see are based on Langstroth's work years ago - but that was all meant for COMMERCIAL beekeeping. For just one or two hives in a garden there's really no need to get so complicated with it.

Start with this page and go from there. It needn't be difficult or expensive.
how to start beekeeping

Just keep in mind that the hive design has moved on a little since Phil wrote the Barefoot Beekeeper and the free hive plans on the site - so if you're going to do it either let me know and I'll let you know the major points, or join that forum and tke advantage of the vast wealth of knowledge on there.

[dave_norm_smith]

Hi

What a facinating link. Just spent an hour watching videos and reading away. Incidentally as I take it you keep this kind of hive, how do yields compare with what I would know as standard hives (like Mrs Dobby's). Does this version over winter any better or worse

Dave ( I'm off back now to read some more)

[vicky]

Went on another bit of my bee keeping course today - really facinating. Went through 6 hives saw eggs, larvae, a queen, varroa and wax moths...suddenly all the the jargon is clear!
Bought a hive....

[Hilary B]

Years ago (lost track, but certainly not less than 27) we bought 2 hives full of bees, a smoker, and all the protective equipment, for... well not very much. We get some honey (not a lot, but more than we could use, including giving away to extended family) each year until we moved, and it just wasn't practical to take the hives with us. Apart from reading all the books we could get our hands on, and a bit of advice from someone local when we needed a new queen in one hive, it was 'learning on the job'.
The books make a lot more sense when you've actually got bees in front of you!

[BigShot]

Dave,

The honey yield question doesn't have a straightforward answer. (Though if you've spent that long reading about it, I'm guessing you can handle a long post in reply! )
Firstly it's important to keep in mind that natural beekeeping with top bars doesn't put honey yield as a top priority. For some it's merely a bonus if the bees have a good year and winter.

In the main kind of hive on that site (horizontal top bar hive based upon the Kenyan type with sloping sides) typically have a lower yield than a conventional hive, but that's no bad thing.

Conventional hives were designed with one thing in mind. Making commercial beekeeping a viable business. Everything else (health and natural behaviour of the bees included) are secondary to that concern. This includes supering the hive to increase honey production, excluding the queen from part of the hive, frames, foundation and so on. It's all for commercial reasons... be they quantity or ease of manipulation.

On the other hand, top bars allow the bees to build their own comb, whatever size they need it to be for the job they intend it for. It allows them to re-work the comb if they so desire. All this comb building means energy (and so honey) used, which will lower the honey yield for the beekeeper.

Another thing that reduces yield is the way the hives are overwintered. A lot of (but not all) conventional beekeepers remove most of the honey and replace it with sugar... an incredibly low grade food by comparison. Almost universally, natural beekeepers (typically using top bar hives) leave the honey on the hive over winter and harvest only once the local nectar flow is back the following year.

This means a lower yield as the bees have been feeding on the honey all winter... but again, that's no bad thing.


That's not to suggest bees on top bars can't produce huge yields of honey. An Argentine beekeeper called Oscar Perone has a commercial operation based on top bar beekeeping... and it's a BIG one.
Click here - for a google translated version of his website.


There are those in the natural beekeeping world who believe having lots of space above the nest (empty supers) makes the bees work harder to fill it with honey... which will increase yield, but in doing so make young bees leave the hive to forage earlier than they would meaning less hive cleaning and brood feeding, both of which have a negative impact on the colony - IF that theory is true.


So yes, there is usually a lower yield. That said, the yield is related to things like hive design, nectar flow, colony health and so on.
A bigger (longer) hive leaves more space for honey stores and so can give a higher yield than a smaller one.


As for overwintering, I honestly don't know how they compare. Most people following Phil Chandler's hive design use hive walls about an inch thick which should make it easier for the bees to maintain a steady hive temperature (in both summer and winter) when compared to the 3/4 inch walls of a national. As with any bees under huge pressure from monoculture, modern agriculture, loss of wildflowers, pesticide use and imported diseases, top bar bees kept in a near-natural way will struggle. The key difference is that in a top bar hive they have the chance to exhibit natural behaviour with a lower load of toxic chemicals which should make for healthier colonies which overwinter better. It's a complicated problem, though, and what the beekeeper does (or rather, doesn't) do to them is only one part of the solution.

The simple fact here is that no matter what kind of hive you have, you'll lose colonies over the winter for any number of reasons... too mild a winter can be a biggie, as can disease, insufficient food and more.


I'm sure some of this will repeat what you've read and seen on the site, but it's a fascinating topic and one which (clearly) I'm happy to talk about until the cows (or rather, bees) come home.

[Mrs Dobby]

Hi Bigshot,

Great post!

Have to say that although some do remove all the noney and feed their bees with a sugar solution, its not something we do. We leave at least a brood box and a super both full of honey on our hives over winter, it reduces our yield, but only seems fair to us, they worked hard for their honey, so they should be able to use it when they need it. In the 2 winters we've had so far we;ve been lucky enough to have had all our colonies survive thru the winter.

[dave_norm_smith]

Hi

Thanks for the reply Bigshot. Your post does reflect a lot of what I have been reading on the bee forum but I'm a great believer in the more info the better, especially with what is a completely new way of keeping bees to me.

What I have been reading a lot about is the Warre hive approach, in part down to the look and in part, footprint. I also like working with wood and having a crack at either one of these really appeals. As I only have a limited budget and space for this possible project the Warre seems to tick a lot of the boxes. Just a pity I can not get a look at those plans advertised without shelling out $27. I'm not tight but things are tough at the moment. However I did manage to find a a document for the Construction of the Peoples Hive which has been adapted and converted from the Abbe Emile Warre version by David Heaf.

I take on the philosophy behind keeping bees this way and having read a lot after becoming interested due to Mrs Dobby's posts, I see the obvious benefits of helping the bees any way I can. A touch of hayfever and the fact that I use about 3-4lb of honey a year, hopefully means we can help each other out without putting the hive at risk. To be honest I'm not sure I could even shift 40- 50lbs of honey if I had it!

Luckily I have been offered a visit to a top bar set up near Scunthorpe so I will hopefully continue my steep learning curve with some hands on Q & A.

Thanks again for all the informative responses.

Dave

[BigShot]

Happy to hear you've got the chance to see a working hive, Dave. Enjoy it.
Did you get the translated version of Warré's book? I'll dig out a link for you if not.

One of the natural beekeepers I know just put a swarm into a Warré and they seem happy. He hit the jackpot too. Dark bees (possibly natives), very docile and... get this... from a FERAL colony which is established on the outside of a church tower. They pulled through the winter and threw a swarm a week ago. I think he probably has the toughest bees in the country! Haha.
Native, feral, survivor bees that overwinter well. What more could you want!?

I'm toying with the idea of starting a Warré at some point, though I'm going to have to find somewhere new to keep it if I do, because the beekeeper I'm sharing an apiary with isn't so sure about them on the disease front. I've only got a place for my hive because he's been kind enough to let me in so I'll be respecting his view there.


Mrs D - I have half a mind (full stop) that your bees will have an easier time overwintering BEACUSE you leave honey on. There's far more to honey than mere sugar (as you'll well know) so it baffles me that some people think it's a good replacement.

I'm glad you liked the post too. *Some* conventional-hive keepers really get their backs up when someone points out the roots of the system and potential issues with the hives. It's always nice to come across people who are open to new ideas and different ways.

[Hilary B]

I would love to keep bees again, but suspect if it happens at all it will be in Spain. I recently got hold of a secondhand copy of one of the more conventional beekeeping books (Ted Hooper "guide to bees and honey") and have purchased from e-bay (not yet arrived) the one which describes the catenary hive, which appeals to me as a useful compromise between the 'traditional' (ie, mainly for maximum honey production) and the 'top bar' type (which, from descriptions of use, seems to make taking any honey at all rather complicated). The catenary hive in that book has a brood chamber mainly similar to the one in the top bar type, but takes ordinary supers and queen excluder. He also describes how it is possible to make a type of reinforced foundation for this type of hive, reinforced with nylon mesh rather than with wires, and I can see the point of attempting to reduce the risk of comb 'drooping' if it gets warm (especially since I expect to use the thing in a warmer climate than the UK).
If I ever get the chance to set up this idea, I will make the thing, and hope a swarm finds it.

[dave_norm_smith]

Hi Bigshot

I'm assuming it’s the translated version, I don't think my GCSE French would help otherwise! lol

I don’t think I would fancy getting into a fight with those bees, how tough must they be to thrive in those conditions? They do however sound like ideal candidates, good strong genes has got to be a bonus. Maybe you could keep us informed as a bit of a case study for the site? Surely I cannot be alone in not having heard of 'top bars' and 'Warres', until your posts, ironic when I watched the Carol Klein gardeners special when they installed one in her garden. I like the fact that there are other avenues to follow with beekeeping and that there are more knowledgeable people than I willing to help. That way, even if I end up with a standard hive I will have least explored all alternatives and picked on its merits.

As for not getting flamed when you offer a different opinion I also think is great, but I feel that is how the site is in general- plus Mrs Dobbie is a bit of a star anyway. Her posts have inspired me to keep my own balance sheet as well as gaining an interest in bee keeping. I used to use a few Koi keepers sites and you were 'flamed' if you dare to offer an alternative opinion or even ask questions, hence I no longer bother with them.

I'll let you know how I get on with the visit and hopefully post some pictures.

Dave

[Mrs Dobby]

Lol, you 2 will have me blushing!!

Bigshot, Im open to anything that is in the bees best interest, be that the conventional hive system or top bar or anything else, we started beekeeping in order to help the bees, not for how big a harvest we can get. Im a big advicate of letting them eat honey rather than feeding them with sugar solution, especially overwinter, which may well be why we have nice strong colonies that have come thru the past 2 winters so well.

Dave, thanks, but Im no star, Im just lil old me, tho I do get a good idea once in a while! lol!

[weekendwellies]

Mrs D, would you advise me on whether it is possible to keep bumble bees near to honeybees. Do they avoid each other or attack each other. As previously posted we have a chap who keeps honey bees on the site at the opposite end to my plot. I would like to get one of the Beepol things that I have seen, probably next spring now, but if they are going to clash with the honeybees then I would rather not bring them onto the site. I would prefer the bumble bees as I dont especially want to go to the expense of getting all the kit required for honeybees or have to process all the honey, but I do want to do my bit to keep up the bee population in general.

[vicky]

They can co exist very happily, they won't attack each other. They do compete for pollen/nectar from some flowers but bumbles forage at cooler temperatures, visit a greater variety of flowers and are more effective pollinators - so even better than honeybees ecologically speaking!
However I wouldn't go about shouting about getting a hive as not everyone sees them as a good thing and it's possible your resident beekeeper won't be happy!!

[weekendwellies]

thanks Vicky,, yes I was going to keep it low key. and the state my plot looks no-one would probably notice a little box lurking in a corner anyway,

I was mainly concerned that they would get beaten up by the honeybs!