Biological farming - better than organic and conventional?

[purpleone]

Thanks, Mr Bones. Very useful. I'll be getting these books for sure. But that was a big help. Do you combine these teas with manure, ash, green manures or other treatments? Or are they all you use?

All in all, a useful thread for introducing me to things I'd never heard of. So thanks, purpleone. Even if I am a bit skeptical about only having to do this once and never again. Maybe weather conditions are different where Dr. Ingham lives!

You are welcome Snoop Puss

I am also little skeptical about only having to do this once and never again.
But on the other hand it does makes sense to me. She says that these organisms live in
kind of symbiotic relationship with our plants. They feed the plant and protect it and the plant
gives them food. So they work mutually. It's all part of the ecosystem I guess.

I'll try and we'll see what happens.
Dr Ingham seems like someone that stands behind her words.

What she says though is that biology will stay there(and do all the job) unitll we destroy it.
How can we destroy it? She says some of the ways are tilling, pesticides, herbicides and other harmful chemicals. Tilling will slice and dice the fungi in the soil and chemicals will kill them. If we don't do that she says that they will be there indefinitely living symbiotically with our plants.

[Greenleaves]

We are all interested to know where you are based Purpleone...

I for one have never heard of Dr Ingram but if you fancy giving it a go good luck

[Thelma Sanders]

What she says though is that biology will stay there(and do all the job) unitll we destroy it.
How can we destroy it? She says some of the ways are tilling, pesticides, herbicides and other harmful chemicals. Tilling will slice and dice the fungi in the soil and chemicals will kill them. If we don't do that she says that they will be there indefinitely living symbiotically with our plants

So I wonder why you were so dismissive of people like Charles Dowding who use no chemicals, do not dig and add nothing but composted weeds, leaves and manure, each year. (It appears CD is even fussy about where his manure comes from!) Surely this results in the same symbiotic soil system that you and Dr Ingham are trying to build?

[purpleone]

We are all interested to know where you are based Purpleone...

I for one have never heard of Dr Ingram but if you fancy giving it a go good luck

I am based in Montenegro. It's a small country in south east Europe. It was part of former Yugoslavia.

Thanks for wishing me good luck

[purpleone]

So I wonder why you were so dismissive of people like Charles Dowding who use no chemicals, do not dig and add nothing but composted weeds, leaves and manure, each year. (It appears CD is even fussy about where his manure comes from!) Surely this results in the same symbiotic soil system that you and Dr Ingham are trying to build?

I am not dismissive of people like Charles Dowding. I actually like him and I like that kind of agriculture. And he seems like a nice guy on top of it.

But it sounds easier for me to do fix the biology in first year and do nothing ever again.
In some cases it may take couple of years dr I. says. I suppose that will be the case with me
because we have been using chemicals for so long so it will take longer time to establish good biology.

We'll see how it works

[veggiechicken]

I'm a natural sceptic and can't believe that one application of DrI's liquid compost can correct many years of chemical abuse. Nothing is that simple. If it was, the stuff would be bottled and sold to the masses by one of the big pharmaceuticals. Yes, I know it wouldn't be "live" but that wouldn't stop them!
I hope it works for you.

[ESBkevin]

ESBKevin, do you follow a particular 'method'? Do you use this Korean method or a version thereof?

Edited to add: those books look interesting, Mr Bones. Maybe something I should have started reading in December when I had more time. Anyway, I'll take a look at them too. I have to admit, though, that at my age I do tend to want the low-down straight away! Time feels like it's of the essence these days.

At this stage I have yet to make any IMO although I have everything ready but last year was hectic enough. So im organic with some no dig and let nature take the lead on lots of things.
This year the use of IMO will be my big experiment.

[Snoop Puss]

^Good luck, hope it goes well. Keep us informed on how it goes.

[Snoop Puss]

By the way, purpleone, I've just had a look at Dr. Ingham's website. Apart from being quite shocked at the price of her courses, I note she says this:
"We must continue to add microbes and nutrients."

That makes me think that it's not a one-year miracle. It looks more to be an ongoing thing. I haven't watched the video (my connection wouldn't cope), so I don't know if she gives the impression there that if you follow her maxims for a year, you're sorted for ever. Having seen her website, my skepticism has grown. I'm going to have a look at the book recommended by Mr Bones, which is a bargain in comparison!

[ESBkevin]

By the way, purpleone, I've just had a look at Dr. Ingham's website. Apart from being quite shocked at the price of her courses, I note she says this:
"We must continue to add microbes and nutrients."

That makes me think that it's not a one-year miracle. It looks more to be an ongoing thing. I haven't watched the video (my connection wouldn't cope), so I don't know if she gives the impression there that if you follow her maxims for a year, you're sorted for ever. Having seen her website, my skepticism has grown. I'm going to have a look at the book recommended by Mr Bones, which is a bargain in comparison!

I'm not sure Dr Ingram says it never needs resetting, but mother nature uses the forest and it's a se;lf contained system that regenerates itself without intervention. I theory if you don't run a mono culture then the soil system will sustain itself with nature. If you extract too much harvest or disturb the balance you might need to correct it in the future.

Other exponents of a similar theory are these people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4L3CL5yxRM
They have a selection of videos that are worth a few minutes of your time.

We may not all wish to grow in this manner, but the fact that it can be done is worth knowing. It's a big leap of faith to go this route which I've not completely taken yet, I'm from a farming family and old habits are hard to break.

[veggiechicken]

Now you're talking my language, ESB.
Mother Nature knows best.

I think of the soil as a Bank that holds your "crops" in its vault. You can "withdraw" from it when you are in credit, not take too much or you'll be overdrawn and pay back in the same currency. Its no good paying in forged notes (Inorganic chemicals) as, once the bank discovers they are forgeries it will not accept them and may, even close down your account.
Dr I appears to be saying that one big "payment" will cancel out the debt and your bank account will be in the green again. 30 years of counterfeit payments and rummaging through the vault would test the most patient of bank managers and they're not going to make anyone creditworthy in one year. That's my theory anyway

As you were....................

[purpleone]

I'm a natural sceptic and can't believe that one application of DrI's liquid compost can correct many years of chemical abuse. Nothing is that simple. If it was, the stuff would be bottled and sold to the masses by one of the big pharmaceuticals. Yes, I know it wouldn't be "live" but that wouldn't stop them!
I hope it works for you.

As far as selling "the stuff" by big pharmaceuticals, I don't know about that. First "the stuff" has to be alive because the micro-organisms are the ones that do all the work. It's not that easy to bottle them(because aerobic ones need air) even though it is possible. Second, microorganisms form USA may not work in other parts of the world like UK or in my country because of different climates and other conditions. Different species of micro-organisms will grow in different climates. You have to make your own. That is why they call them indigenous micro-organisms. And third even if they would somehow manage to do that it would raise awareness of this method so I think no one would want to buy it. Every one would make their own because it's so cheap and easy. That is how I see it. I might be wrong of course.

And you have to know it's not in one application of compost that will fix everything. She recommends this - one application of compost in autumn. Then one application of compost extract in spring if needed and then eventually couple of application of teas during summer if needed(which usually is not needed). That is one year.

However if the soil is badly damaged by the chemicals it may take more.

Now in this case an expert can do it faster if I understood correctly. One can inoculate his compost with special bacteria that will "eat" heavy metals, harsh chemicals and so on. I believe they are called pseudomonads, I am not sure. Just a small inoculate is put into compost or compost tea and they multiply medley and then we apply and solve the problem quickly. But this is probably for someone who knows exactly what he is doing. Probably someone that has bought her courses.

I am going to try without buying the courses because she said that for regular growers what is given free on her websites is enough. It may take more time for me but I believe it may be worth it. I'll see.

[purpleone]

At this stage I have yet to make any IMO although I have everything ready but last year was hectic enough. So im organic with some no dig and let nature take the lead on lots of things.
This year the use of IMO will be my big experiment.

Goo luck with that. Please let us know how it works.

Where did you learn this stuff from? Youtube? Did you take some course or something? Are there any courses?

[purpleone]

By the way, purpleone, I've just had a look at Dr. Ingham's website. Apart from being quite shocked at the price of her courses, I note she says this:
"We must continue to add microbes and nutrients."

That makes me think that it's not a one-year miracle. It looks more to be an ongoing thing. I haven't watched the video (my connection wouldn't cope), so I don't know if she gives the impression there that if you follow her maxims for a year, you're sorted for ever. Having seen her website, my skepticism has grown. I'm going to have a look at the book recommended by Mr Bones, which is a bargain in comparison!

Yes the price of the courses are high but she said that we don't need the courses if we are small scale regular growers. I think that courses are more for the big farmers. She said that properly made compost, extract and tea is more that enough for regular growers. And we have instructions for that on her website.

However she did also say that you must know how to check the biology in your compost, extract, tea, and of course in you soil. You must know whether you compost caries needed microbes or not and she said that you must be able to see whether you soil is fixed of not. If your compost does not carry the microbes there is no much benefit form applying it beside adding a little more organic matter to you soil. If your compost caries the microbes after you apply it they will multiply in your soil but you must be sure of that. They may not be entirely multiplied because of some factors like chemicals in the soil that have been used before. So first you need to know what microbs you need. Then you need to know how they look and you also need a microscope to be able to see wheather they are present in your compost and soil or not.

Beside her website and lectures I think her book "Light Microscope Methods" is needed for this. It can be downloaded in pdf for around $30. And you need a good microscope that is around $270. It's easy to work with a microscope. I bought it and learned how do use it in one day. It's easy and I am not a biologist or microbiologist and I have never used a microscope before. Instructions are on her website on how to use the microscope.

This may be too much for some people but I am willing to give it a try.

She did say "We must continue to add microbes and nutrients." on her website. I didn't see that.

On her lectures she did say that once we fix the biology it will stay there forever until we disturb it. I interpreted that as once fix it it's good for all times. But it might mean that we may have to put in some more work because of the disturbances that are not up to us.

Here is what she said on her website:

"Though we have added microbes and organic nutrients, we still may have problems from environmental disturbances beyond our control—pesticide drift from a neighbouring yard, acid rain, freezing weather, scorching heat, chlorine and chloramine in our watering systems, or too many salts. We must continue to tend our gardens and be watchful. We must continue to add microbes and nutrients. However, less maintenance will be required each year, as our soils increase in organic matter and microbe populations."

It seems to me that in the end there may be more work to be done. But I believe it's still less work than using other methods and maybe reach a point where there is no intervention at all because the ecosystem sustains it self. Like in forest. We don't fertilise and spray the forest and it still grows. I might be wrong of course. We'll see. I am willing to give it a try.

About the book that Mr Bones recommended, I am going to buy that book too probably. Jeff Lowenfels is the student of dr Ingham's I think, so maybe there is not much new there but who knows. Maybe he discovered something new and made everything easier. She recommends his books.

[veggiechicken]

Have you seen this article?
https://www.gardenmyths.com/soil-bac...ion-managment/

As you can tell, purpleone, you have sparked my interest in Dr Ingham enough to look deeper into her methods. Sometimes, believing can be enough to make things happen.