Rats!

[Paul Wagland]

Good point about dog poo Multiveg - the path to our allotment is unfortunately a prime example!

[seasprout]

Rats.

A Rat chewed its way into my Garden Shed last spring, it then preceded to systematically collect every frog that came into my garden to spawn, take them to its new nest (my shed) and rip them to bits. The smell was foul and the sight was even worse.
All I had available at the time was mouse poison which worked a treat, kept the cats in and after several days found the deceased rat which had half melted into the shed floor.

The whole business was horrible, I had done nothing to attract it either.
I wonder whats going to happen this spring.

http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...shed_5459.html

[jeannine]

Are you sure it's the rats that killed the frogs or could it have been your cats? I've never heard of rats killing frogs before but cats do it all the time. It might well be that the rats found the dead frogs and then dragged them into your shed.

We feed cats, so they frequently kill food and then not eat it, but it's extremely rare for a wild animal to do this.

[seasprout]

Definitely the rat... my cats are predominately house cats only allowed out in the 'fenced in garden' under supervision. And the shed was locked.

Definitely the rat.


unless... those silver disks on their collars are transporter devices...
could explain the missing tuna from the fridge.

Just to add a bit of balance to the issue.. i do tolerate the mice in the dalek compost bins.

[jeannine]

I wish my neighbours supervised their cats. They lie in wait to catch frogs from our pond - I think they like the way they jump when they take their paws off their heads!

[The Doctor]

But if you saw a wood pigeon near your allotment would you start putting pigeon poison down? Pigeons are a problem in towns because we (accidentally) provide them with nest sites and lots of food. The same goes for rats on allotments. Be careful and you'll never have a problem

I have to net all my crops because there are pidgeons on my plot, and I never mentioned the use of poison. If I could get away with it without some nancy calling the police, I'd shoot them, because then I could eat them too!

So even if rats do no damage to your stored seeds, equipment or crops, you're going to put down rat poison just because you know they're there? Isn't that a bit extreme?

Boarding-up any holes in your shed and using a biscuit tin to store seeds will be much more effective, not to mention costing you less than a box of rat poison.

What you call extreme, I call necessary. I don't have a shed, and all my seeds are stored at home. And again, I didn't mention the use of poison at any time, only extermination. You seem to have poison on the brain as the only option.

[Two_Sheds]

Hey guys, we're all still friends aren't we?
Its been a good discussion... I wouldn't put poison down if I had a rat, I would re-think what I had done to attract it (as I said earlier in the thread). I too consider cats to be a bigger problem than rats. Personally speaking.

What drives me crazy is the neighbours who put down loaves of bread, which attract pigeons and rats, then the same neighbours ring up the council to complain that THE ALLOTMENTS !!! have rats !!!

[Birdie Wife]

I've read thi thread with interest, and I'm definitely re-thinking my attitude to the whole poisoning thing. I used to put poison down the minute I saw evidence of rats, but I now think there are better ways.

I agree that rats can be discouraged from plots by removing their food source, and if you don't want rats on your plot/garden then turn your compost regularly, keep your shed clean, store all seeds and birdfood in chew-proof tins - so in theory you shouldn't need to put down poison or traps. The trouble is that rats are amazing adaptable and clever creatures, and will find opportunities where we would never consider them. I have chickens and chicks running around in the spring/summer, and rats will help themselves if they find a way. I'd rather not discover that I accidentally left a tiny hole at the back of the run where my broody and her two-day olds are roosting, to come back the next morning and find little dead bodies. I'm not going to use poison escept in places where I could get a trap in, and I think it will be traps from now on.

I do struggle with these issues though - we create habitats just right for slugs, rats, pigeons, and then decide they aren't allowed. They are making the most of an opportunity. The least I can do is make sure that when I have to control a pest, its done in a way that is as quick and pain-free as I can make it.

[jeannine]

I think this is a really interesting discussion.

It’s made me think a lot about what constitutes a pest. Most people (myself included) would be horrified to exterminate a cat or dog because we’ve all had them as pets - so we know what a lot of personality they have. I’m guessing that anyone who’d had a pet rat would also be horrified at the thought of exterminating them, for the same reasons.

I’ve done a bit of research on this, ‘cos I think it might make a good piece in the mag, and I was surprised to find that our pet dogs spread more diseases in this country than rats. I was also amazed to find that cleaning up dog mess costs this country 23 million pounds a year. (If you Google it, it makes scary reading. Imagine if that money was being spent on new allotment sites!!!).

What’s more, according to the Mammal Society, Britain's 8m domesticated cats (and 1m feral cats) kill up to 300m wild birds and mammals every year. That is about one every 10 days, per cat. So cats affect the crops we get because they massively reduce the number of natural predators (such as birds, frogs, bats and even young hedgehogs) of the pests like slugs, snails and grubs that eat our crops. Yet few people would suggest shooting or poisoning cats, although their mess can also spread diseases.

So I wonder what makes people react so strongly to worries about rats? Certainly our concerns are often disproportionate to the facts. As Beaky pointed out, a lot of people believe that rats were responsible for spreading the plague. But according to The Times, experts now believe that the Black Death is more likely to have been a viral infection, similar to haemorrhagic fever or ebola, that spread from person to person.

Leptospirosis or Weil’s disease (which is associated with rats) affects around 80 people a year in England and Wales. However, a staggering 2% of the population are affected by Toxicara (from dog mess)! There are 100 cases a year of Toxicara affecting children, according to the Environment Commission, and that's a real tragedy. If you asked the average person on the street, they would says rats are a bigger pest than dogs or cats, and rats spread more diseases than dogs.

I have to say I would have said that too, until I looked in to it, but it turns out it isn’t true.

Anyway, I think it makes sense to act responsibly and prevent any animals becoming a problem on our gardens and allotments – and then we won’t need to contemplate daft things like putting poison near our food. It goes to show that prevention is better than cure when it comes to gardening.

And I strongly agree with Birdie Wife. If, despite my best efforts, a situation arose where I did decide to exterminate a rat, or any other pest, then I would only use instant measures.

Posions do more harm than good, there are no ‘safe’ ways to use them, and the only people who benefit are the people who are selling the stuff!

[Two_Sheds]

few people would suggest shooting or poisoning cats !

I know a few who would

[Paul Wagland]

Hey guys, we're all still friends aren't we?

I hope so!!! Debates like this always get a bit heated - but there's a lot of sense in the last few posts.

I too consider cats to be a bigger problem than rats. Personally speaking.

There's certainly much more evidence of cats in my raised beds... Jeannine's statistics would also seem to back this up - in the wild a cat might have a territory of a couple of square miles but who can guess how many domestic cats would inhabit a couple of urban square miles? Several hundred perhaps? It's kind of inspiring that some of our wild birds still manage to survive (the evidence for which is all over my car, which is parked under a tree!).

In this country many people see dogs and cats as pets, cows and sheep as food, rats and pigeons as vermin etc. These are heavily ingrained ideas, but are things really that simple? In some countries rats and dogs are food, in others cows are holy. In France they eat everything... and their food still tastes better than ours. Is that what they mean by egalite I wonder...?

Of course for The Doctor, pigeons are both vermin and food - I'm all for the sustainable option!

[pigletwillie]

We have rats at work (a very large stone quarry) and whilst Leptospirosis is indeed rare it is an illness we are all briefed about. Rats and mice are by their nature doubly incontinent and therefore leave their mess everywhere which is less than pleasant. Their demeanour is very bold and can be quite scarey if you meet one in a service tunnel.

To an extent allotments are "wild areas" in that we encourage some wildlife but restrict other, rats, pigeons and rabbits in the main from our plots. Lets not pretend that our plots are nature reserves in the traditional sense, they are not, their main aim is food production and to help us achieve that we selectively encourage wildlife to asist us.

Rats will always be found where humans are and whilst I agree with Paul Wagland that good housekeeping is essential at keeping them away. They dont manage their environment at all, they are pure opportunitists and move in on any that they come accross. If I had one in my shed it would be trapped and removed. I dont want any of my tools etc being soiled by rodent faeces and urine and certainly not my seats and gloves etc. If I had children visiting my plots I CERTAINLY would not want them lurking about, the risks are too great.

I would want rats on my plots about as much as I would want to poke my eyes out with sharp sticks.

[pigletwillie]

We have rats at work (a very large stone quarry) and whilst Leptospirosis is indeed rare it is an illness we are all briefed about. Rats and mice are by their nature doubly incontinent and therefore leave their mess everywhere which is less than pleasant. Their demeanour is very bold and can be quite scarey if you meet one in a service tunnel.

To an extent allotments are "wild areas" in that we encourage some wildlife but restrict other, rats, pigeons and rabbits in the main from our plots. Lets not pretend that our plots are nature reserves in the traditional sense, they are not, their main aim is food production and to help us achieve that we selectively encourage wildlife to asist us.

Rats will always be found where humans are and whilst I agree with Paul Wagland that good housekeeping is essential at keeping them away. They dont manage their environment at all, they are pure opportunitists and move in on any that they come accross. If I had one in my shed it would be trapped and removed. I dont want any of my tools etc being soiled by rodent faeces and urine and certainly not my seats and gloves etc. If I had children visiting my plots I CERTAINLY would not want them lurking about, the risks are too great.

I would want rats on my plots about as much as I would want to poke my eyes out with sharp sticks.

[The Doctor]

Of course for The Doctor, pigeons are both vermin and food - I'm all for the sustainable option!

I would add cats and dogs to the list but then I'd really be in trouble!!

We have rats at work (a very large stone quarry) and whilst Leptospirosis is indeed rare it is an illness we are all briefed about. Rats and mice are by their nature doubly incontinent and therefore leave their mess everywhere which is less than pleasant. Their demeanour is very bold and can be quite scarey if you meet one in a service tunnel.

To an extent allotments are "wild areas" in that we encourage some wildlife but restrict other, rats, pigeons and rabbits in the main from our plots. Lets not pretend that our plots are nature reserves in the traditional sense, they are not, their main aim is food production and to help us achieve that we selectively encourage wildlife to asist us.

Rats will always be found where humans are and whilst I agree with Paul Wagland that good housekeeping is essential at keeping them away. They dont manage their environment at all, they are pure opportunitists and move in on any that they come accross. If I had one in my shed it would be trapped and removed. I dont want any of my tools etc being soiled by rodent faeces and urine and certainly not my seats and gloves etc. If I had children visiting my plots I CERTAINLY would not want them lurking about, the risks are too great.

I would want rats on my plots about as much as I would want to poke my eyes out with sharp sticks.

I would have to agree with this, PW.

[jeannine]

Hi Piglet Willie,

I don't know if you saw my earlier post, but it turns out that children are at considerably greater risk from dog and cat faeces than they are from rats.

Also, like you I'd heard that rats are incontinent, but it turns out that's another myth. Like dogs and cats they urinate to mark their territory, and they choose where to leave their droppings - it only takes a few days to house train a pet rat - some animals never learn!

I certainly don't want to be anti cat or dog here, but I am keen to get the rat debate in perspective and find out more about them. They don't do as much harm as lots of other animals that we are all happy to tolerate, so I'm really curious about why people react so strongly to rats?