Rats!

[jeannine]

I agree with Paul, what the people who make a fortune selling rat poison don't tell you is that prevention is better than cure. If you provide an environment that attracts rats, then even if you kill one, more will come along.

Also, we all know that after eating pellets, slugs die slowly, and during that time any birds and hedgehogs that come along and eat them get posioned too (thereby making the slug problem considerably worse). It's the same with rats that are dying from being poisoned - just because pets and wildlife won't eat the poison directly, that doesn't mean it's safe.

[Flummery]

I agree that if they find nothing to eat they will move on. One of the biggest attractions for rats is the seed bird-feeder. There are ALWAYS seeds under ours - some birds actually chuck stuff out until they find the one they like! Difficult one this, as I love to have the birds around the garden.

[Paul Wagland]

I definitely consider an allotment site to be 'the wild' though

Hardly.

Come on Manda - Allotments are heaving with wildlife - it's one of my favourite parts of the hobby. Apart from brown rats on our plot we have bank voles, muntjac deer, foxes, slow worms, every kind of newt/toad/frog, lizards, snakes.... I could go on and on. That's not to mention the birds and insects!

The artificially diverse range of habitats on an allotment site is responsible for bringing all kinds of different species - including humans - together in a small space. There's no reason we can't co-exist, and the attitude that it's 'my land' and 'I have a right to kill anything on it' is at least 50 years out of date.

[smallblueplanet]

The artificially diverse range of habitats on an allotment site is responsible for bringing all kinds of different species - including humans - together in a small space.

Indeed, but as I said hardly 'the wild'.

There's no reason we can't co-exist, and the attitude that it's 'my land' and 'I have a right to kill anything on it' is at least 50 years out of date.

We don't appear to have been able to 'happily' co-exist with rats for a very long time, if ever. The last part of your statement has nothing to do with what I said. For your further information 'man' has been managing his environment at least since the Mesolithic, and things have been killed to further the aim of a better environment.

However 'I have a right...' doesn't follow on from that aim. I did not mention 'a right', but in a man-made environment rats are vermin and so should be treated as such. Sometimes harsh desions have to be made towards killing things...a decision I don't take lightly. But treating rats on an allotment as 'cute' is not an attitude I can go along with.

[beaky]

I've started something now..............
Looks like prevention is better then cure, but I have to agree that wild rats do carry diseases such as cholera, typhus, bubonic plague and leptospirosis, a bacterial illness spread by their urine contaminating water or food (information from BBC website). I do know of children becoming very unwell following expose to rat urine. They really shouldn't be encouraged or fed.

[Paul Wagland]

OK, we have different definitions of 'wild'.

Generally speaking, humans do co-exist happily with rats and always have. There are at least as many rats in the UK as there are humans and how often do they bother us? The only time a problem will occur is, as I've said, when food and nesting opportunities are provided by humans in a place where rats, from our point of view, ought not to be. Avoid doing this, Manda, and you won't have to make the decision you "don't take lightly".

Rats have been 'managing' their own environment for just as long as we have, as have all animals. Guess which animal caused global warming, widespread pollution and the extinction of thousands of other species? But let's not let that stop us eh? It's all to further the aim of a better environment after all.

Leptospirosis (Weil's disease) is rare, and has a low infection rate when encountered. Rats are by no means the only animal to carry it. And when was the last time you heard of anyone catching one of the other bugs that Beaky lists? All animals carry diseases and parasites - you probably have E-Coli and Salmonella in you body as you read this. Rats are no particular exception to or example of this.

Why are rats vermin? Are we somehow more deserving of an un-chewed seed packet than they are of their very existence? Pet cats and dogs probably do more damage to our property than wild rats do - are they vermin? By the way, rats are more intelligent than either.

In a nutshell, don't be stupid enough to feed and house rats and they won't bother you. Therefore no killing required. Ratty rant over!

[smallblueplanet]

OK, we have different definitions of 'wild'....

Yes, yours is more Beatrix Potter than mine.

I am not gonna comment again. Rats are vermin. Don't patronise me.

[Paul Wagland]

Hey, let's just agree to disagree! I really had no intention of patronising you.

[beaky]

Can not believe the response this thread got, thanks to everyone for their differing and interesting points of view, and I have to say again that it seems that prevention is better then cure, but does that mean I have to stop growing sweetcorn (they ate all nearly all our crop last year). I have to say that I am still not keen on rats, like I said I have known children to get poorly from them so perhaps that has influenced my opinion. Then again it may have been Roland Rat from TVAM that put me off!
Lots of food for thought though!

[SarzWix]

On our plots, rats, mice etc are kept under control by a couple of feral cats, and a man with a couple of Jack Russells. I don't agree with poisoning them, as a friend's dog nearly died after finding a poisoned rat in the nearby woodland & trying to eat it, but I don't agree with letting them run riot either! Do your best to keep them out, and get some big cats!

[The Doctor]

Some people are pidgeon fanciers, but it doesn't stop the rest of the population from considering them as vermin.

I guess the same applies to rats.

I haven't spotted any on my plot, but if and when I do, war will be declared and they will be exterminated, rats rights or not!

[jeannine]

My mum's cat died a horrible death after killing a rat (that must have been poisoned) and he only ate a small bit of it!
The problem with introducing poisons into the environment is that you can't predict what harm they'll do further down the line.

[multiveg]

There's something on a wildlife site about an 11 year old that has impaired sight contracted via dog poo (the family don't have pets) - I think dog poo is worse than rats which, lets face it, we can't slaughter to extinction. Owners can do something about dog poo (though some throw bags of it into trees or leave the plastic bags of it in the bushes - worse than leaving poo as is in the bushes..).

[Seahorse]

I hadn't looked at this thread before, as rats aren't a current problem for me, but what an interesting discussion!

We have a colony of at least 14 semi-feral cats on our site and whilst the cat poop can be irritating, I've yet to hear of anyone having problems with rats or mice. A fair exchange, as far as I'm concerned.

[Paul Wagland]

Some people are pidgeon fanciers, but it doesn't stop the rest of the population from considering them as vermin.

But if you saw a wood pigeon near your allotment would you start putting pigeon poison down? Pigeons are a problem in towns because we (accidentally) provide them with nest sites and lots of food. The same goes for rats on allotments. Be careful and you'll never have a problem.

I haven't spotted any on my plot, but if and when I do, war will be declared and they will be exterminated, rats rights or not!

So even if rats do no damage to your stored seeds, equipment or crops, you're going to put down rat poison just because you know they're there? Isn't that a bit extreme?

Boarding-up any holes in your shed and using a biscuit tin to store seeds will be much more effective, not to mention costing you less than a box of rat poison.