Another interesting Roundup study...

[bearded bloke]

I assume it means using 33% more acreage to grow the same amount organically than "conventionally",also bear in that since the recalculations in 2005 there has been yet another increase in population,these increases in population all need to be housed,new houses consume more land,so less land for agriculture/horticulture.So there is a law of diminishing returns coming into effect,more tonnage of crops from reduced acreage.

[Leif]

I assume it means using 33% more acreage to grow the same amount organically than "conventionally",also bear in that since the recalculations in 2005 there has been yet another increase in population,these increases in population all need to be housed,new houses consume more land,so less land for agriculture/horticulture.So there is a law of diminishing returns coming into effect,more tonnage of crops from reduced acreage.

In which case wildlife might be even worse off, since we would use land currently not farmed. I'm not saying that is the case, but it sounds like it might be. I think the UK is overcrowded, but that is not a popular view.

[Glutton4...]

I'm interested in why some threads get peoples' backs up. And, before anyone gets their hackles up and starts snarling at me, I'm not 'having a go' at anyone. I merely find it curious.

Since I have been a member of this Forum, I've seen threads on Organic principals, Vegetarianism, Cyclists, Politics, Religion, and more, get people all worked up and overreacting. Most of the posts on here are merely a matter of someone's personal opinion, and not meant to be taken as an attack on someone else's beliefs.

VVG wasn't 'having a go' at Leif. Also, I don't believe that the 'Daily Mail-esque black and white' comment, was any more than merely a question, asked as part of the debate.

Trouble-makers don't last long on this forum. Never have. So you can rest assured that if the person you are 'debating' with, has been here for a couple of years or more, they are actually interested in having a constructive conversation, and are not trying to incite trouble.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

I'll crawl back under my stone, now.

[bearded bloke]

Yes,it is over populated & it's not going to change anytime soon,IF the global warming theory is correct then things will get disproportionately worse,as the sea level rises the land mass will diminish,so then you will have the same amount of people living on less area of land,I would imagine that the first large single area of land in England to revert back to sea will be the Fens,which is some of the most productive arable land in the country,that in itself will have huge ramifications on the food chain.

[Potstubsdustbins]

G4 under a stone and being quite, now that I would like to see

But you are quite right in your assertion.

Potty

[Glutton4...]

* Reaches out to cuff Potty round the lug'ole.

[VirginVegGrower]

I'm interested in why some threads get peoples' backs up. And, before anyone gets their hackles up and starts snarling at me, I'm not 'having a go' at anyone. I merely find it curious.

Since I have been a member of this Forum, I've seen threads on Organic principals, Vegetarianism, Cyclists, Politics, Religion, and more, get people all worked up and overreacting. Most of the posts on here are merely a matter of someone's personal opinion, and not meant to be taken as an attack on someone else's beliefs.

VVG wasn't 'having a go' at Leif. Also, I don't believe that the 'Daily Mail-esque black and white' comment, was any more than merely a question, asked as part of the debate.

Trouble-makers don't last long on this forum. Never have. So you can rest assured that if the person you are 'debating' with, has been here for a couple of years or more, they are actually interested in having a constructive conversation, and are not trying to incite trouble.

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth.

I'll crawl back under my stone, now.

Oy honeybunch - Get out from under it!
Personally I don't care if someone wants to pour it down their neck neat, but I will not use it, I don't want to eat it, drink it, lick it or line the big boy's pockets. The scientists said CJD wasn't real and look what happened there. I have trust issues
I am happy in my sinful, sick and no spray world.

[Glutton4...]

Oy honeybunch - Get out from under it! ...

to you! Wanna buy any Wound-up!?

[Potstubsdustbins]

* Reaches out to cuff Potty round the lug'ole.

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that hurts.

Potty

[Glutton4...]

Actually, Wound-up's a good name for it!

[VirginVegGrower]

I like to round em up and I've heard you do too yeehah

[Leif]

I'm interested in why some threads get peoples' backs up. And, before anyone gets their hackles up and starts snarling at me, I'm not 'having a go' at anyone. I merely find it curious.

Since I have been a member of this Forum, I've seen threads on Organic principals, Vegetarianism, Cyclists, Politics, Religion, and more, get people all worked up and overreacting. Most of the posts on here are merely a matter of someone's personal opinion, and not meant to be taken as an attack on someone else's beliefs.

VVG wasn't 'having a go' at Leif. Also, I don't believe that the 'Daily Mail-esque black and white' comment, was any more than merely a question, asked as part of the debate.

Most people here are polite, but VVG dismissed my post, without an explanation of why, in a very haughty manner, went on to make unconnected remarks. It came across as rude, rather than discussion. There seems to be a narrow orthodoxy on this forum amongst a few people. So someone says "I don't use chemicals" and lots of people say "Amen Brother". On one thread I posted an innocuous statement, views held by many people such as my neighbour who is a landscape gardener, and was accused by a moderator of posting controversial views. I was taken aback. It does seem very political here, not very relaxed to say the least. Posting views held by mainstream gardeners is troublemaking it seems.

[Leif]

Trouble-makers don't last long on this forum. Never have. So you can rest assured that if the person you are 'debating' with, has been here for a couple of years or more, they are actually interested in having a constructive conversation, and are not trying to incite trouble.

I would say that the posts following yours are proof that the above is not the case. Quite the contrary.

[SarzWix]

She wasn't making unconnected remarks, any more than you were. Your 'Islington intellectual' remark was a sweeping generalisation, and a wildly inaccurate one, in that (a) people who buy organic apparently ALL fit into that mould, (b) intellectuals apparently can't work out that organic from Israel = air miles, and (c) that eating organic is purely about being 'green' and not a desire to avoid eating pesticide and herbicide residue.

I also can't understand why you're surprised at the moderators and members largely taking an organic/environmentally sound stance in most things - you've been a member for 4 years, nothing has changed, and the magazine itself has that stance. The editor only advocates the use of either when all other avenues have been explored/failed.

[Martin H]

Don't be too hard on the regulars, Leif. It's just the way forums work. Once people have been around a few years they relax and become more succinct / forthright in posting their often well-rehearsed opinions.

It's true that there's a vigorous spirit of no-dig and organic methods on this forum, but there are other spirits lurking around as well.

I'm new here too. I have been much more pragmatic than many on here; I keep away from manufactured chemicals where I can but am prepared to use fungicide / herbicide / insecticide as a short-term fix to a problem that has got out of hand. But my instinct is to dig weeds rather than spray them; to pick caterpillars rather than apply insecticide. With a very small garden this is feasible and I am expecting to hand-clear the new allotment by the end of the year.

Basically it's the approach that Geoff Hamilton showed me on his various TV programmes.

I'm hoping to learn more of, and experiment with, some of the more advanced organic methods. I don't expect to be converted to all of them and there's a few I won't even be trying (e.g. planting according to the constellation the moon is in), but I'm very much looking forward to the journey.

Anyway Leif, welcome to the forum, please do keep posting and tell us what works for you.