Another interesting Roundup study...

[Leif]

She wasn't making unconnected remarks, any more than you were. Your 'Islington intellectual' remark was a sweeping generalisation, and a wildly inaccurate one, in that (a) people who buy organic apparently ALL fit into that mould, (b) intellectuals apparently can't work out that organic from Israel = air miles, and (c) that eating organic is purely about being 'green' and not a desire to avoid eating pesticide and herbicide residue.

I also can't understand why you're surprised at the moderators and members largely taking an organic/environmentally sound stance in most things - you've been a member for 4 years, nothing has changed, and the magazine itself has that stance. The editor only advocates the use of either when all other avenues have been explored/failed.

I have gone back through this thread and I can see no reference to 'Islington intellectual'. VVG referred to 'sweeping generalisations' without giving me a clue as to what was a sweeping generalisation. Is the statement "We grow plants in very artificial conditions, as monocultures which encourages pests, with artificial fertilisers, in large fields with few hedges and few wildflowers. " a sweeping generalisation?

Where did I say that ALL people who buy organic fit into that mould?

Where did I say that intellectuals can't work out that organic from Israel = air miles? Is it really unreasonable to make the point that foreign organic might not be as green as home green industrially grown? It seems fairly innocuous to me.

Where did I say that eating organic is only about being 'green'?

Sorry, but you are attributing to me things I have not said, just as you did in the other thread that was closed. I have the feeling you are deliberately trying to start a fight, and to be honest I've had enough of this intolerant forum.

I have only recently been subject to aggression. I think I must have not stepped out of line before. How can referring to cultivators and glyphosate be controversial unless this is an extremist forum? I have always assumed this was a standard gardening forum. The header says "Grow you own Fruit and Veg Magazine". It does not say "Organic growing" or "Organic Political Activist", or "Organo-Extremist" which is what it seems to be.

Have a nice day. Bye. I'll leave you to your like minded clique.

[zazen999]

Yes. We grow plants in very artificial conditions, as monocultures which encourages pests, with artificial fertilisers, in large fields with few hedges and few wildflowers. We do this because we want fruit and veg at 'affordable' prices. A lot of people cannot afford to buy organic crops. And in any case, which is worse, a non organic crop grown in a Lincolnshire field, or an organic crop grown in Argentina and shipped to the UK? The Islington intellectual may prefer the 'naturally grown' crop, but it might be no more greener, or it might even be worse.

The home grower can mix crops and keep areas for 'weeds' to encourage natural predators. And they can make lots of compost, or buy compost, to avoid having to use artificial fertilisers. I've discovered a free source of used hops, I get cuttings from a hedge, grass cuttings, and urine as a compost accelerator. And I have a reasonable sized garden, unlike most people, with space for fruit and veg.

It's in your post. I did type a response myself but couldn't be bothered to argue it to be honest.

[BertieFox]

In the orginal link you find an article by a Dr Mercola on a health based website:

"Research in the German journal Ithaca revealed significant concentrations of glyphosate in the urine samples of city dwellers."

I did my best to locate the original article but couldn't even find a German journal called Ithaca listed on line, let alone discover if it is a scientific journal or something else.

Does anyone have a link to the original article on which the report on the 'Mercola' site is based?

My thoughts are that glyphosate is best avoided if you don't need to use it (which is most of the time) and that you should never use it on land where you are growing food, as there is evidence even from Monsanto themselves that certain crops are affected by residues.

When it comes to commercial agriculture, one essential element of the drive for genetically modified crops dependent on repeated applications of glyphosate for their 'advantages'. That cannot be good for the environment, and organic farmers have shown repeatedly that there are methods of weed control based on cultivation alone that mean you can avoid its use.

But if it comes to removing persistent perennial weeds around the base of a concrete wall or a stubborn patch of bindweed under a hedge, or a stump that keeps re-growing, I really can't see there can be much harm from one or two occasional applications.

[BertieFox]

In which case wildlife might be even worse off, since we would use land currently not farmed. I'm not saying that is the case, but it sounds like it might be. I think the UK is overcrowded, but that is not a popular view.

Most land is used in extensive livestock farming. If we are thinking of increasing cereal, pulse, and root crops and vegetable production, on suitable land, we could massively increase output without swallowing up very much more land space. Just how much land in Britain is currently used for horticulture? A tiny fraction of total land use, I would imagine.

But I agree with you... England particularly is very crowded and wildlife is being marginalised. As we know though, community farms and organic practices can be very wildlife friendly.

[bearded bloke]

Bertie,it needs a lateral search bud,the original article is written in German ...........

Ithaka-Journal für Terroirwein, Biodiversität und Klimafarming » Blog Archiv » Herbizide im Urin .....
but there is an English version ......
Ithaka-Journal für Terroirwein, Biodiversität und Klimafarming » Blog Archiv » Herbicides found in Human Urine


But please bear in mind my earlier post

Surveys/statistics on ANY subject can be made to support the interests of the party doing/paying for the said survey.

I will also add I have in my shed ;
A mantis tiller
liquid glyphosate
granular glyphosate
& a fork

I use them all,the trick is knowing which is the right one for the "job in hand"

[Two_Sheds]

for many city dwellers it would mean quite a long drive to get to one

"700 community gardens sprinkled through" New York city

"over 3000 families" have rooftop vegetable gardens in Mexico city


"68 [community] gardens for residents" of Seattle city

"There are 17 city farms and more than 100 community gardens" in London

New Stories From 'Urban Agriculture Notes' — City Farmer News

There are urban veg plots all over the world, growing food where the people actually live, and more could be provided if there was the political will to back it.

Maybe you should 'preach' to UK farmers, not to me, the consumer.

The market will provide what the consumer wants to buy. UK consumers have been taught to want cheap food, half of which gets thrown in the bin, uneaten. If there was the political will, we could be re-educated into wanting ethical produce instead.

I thought we were having a conversation. Do you really consider a differing opinion to your own to be preaching?

You got me, I fell for it. I actually thought you were interested in a discussion, but you're really here to shout down people who don't agree with you. That's trolling.

[Two_Sheds]

Have a nice day. Bye. I'll leave you to your like minded clique.

bye *waves*

[Madasafish]

Most land is used in extensive livestock farming. If we are thinking of increasing cereal, pulse, and root crops and vegetable production, on suitable land, we could massively increase output without swallowing up very much more land space. Just how much land in Britain is currently used for horticulture? A tiny fraction of total land use, I would imagine.

But I agree with you... England particularly is very crowded and wildlife is being marginalised. As we know though, community farms and organic practices can be very wildlife friendly.

Agriculture in the United Kingdom uses around 70% of the country's land area and contributes about 0.7% of its gross value added. Agriculture in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

UK land area is 241,930sq km and horticulture production used 150,000 hectares.. http://tinyurl.com/cd8pakv which is 1,5000 sq kms or 0.062% of the total UK area.

One of the reasons for decline in bird and insect numbers in the UK (butterflies, insects and bees)...is the destruction of habitat. Either for housing or farmland. This really started in WW2 with "Dig for Victory" and has continued ever since.

Think marshes , ponds and natural wasteland..

[BertieFox]

Bertie,it needs a lateral search bud,the original article is written in German ...........

Ithaka-Journal für Terroirwein, Biodiversität und Klimafarming » Blog Archiv » Herbizide im Urin .....
but there is an English version ......
Ithaka-Journal für Terroirwein, Biodiversität und Klimafarming » Blog Archiv » Herbicides found in Human Urine


But please bear in mind my earlier post




I will also add I have in my shed ;
A mantis tiller
liquid glyphosate
granular glyphosate
& a fork

I use them all,the trick is knowing which is the right one for the "job in hand"

Thanks for the link to the original article. I see there's a full pdf version at http://www.ithaka-journal.net/druckv...ides-urine.pdf.

Well worth reading as there is a lot of stuff there which I had never heard before. I knew oil seed rape crops were 'dessicated' like this, but I don't think I will be buying rape oil for cooking any more! I'm not even sure the French farmers don't even 'dessicate' the maize crop at the end of the season before feeding it to cattle! Nothing would surprise me over here.

[zazen999]

And another...

But just a point - how can anyone say 'the trick is knowing which is right for the job' when nobody actually knows what harm it can cause?

Entropy | Free Full-Text | Glyphosate

[Pineberry]

Acording to wikipedia: Glyphosate's mode of action is to inhibit an enzyme involved in the synthesis of the aromatic amino acids tyrosine, tryptophan and phenylalanine.

Those 3 amino acids are important as mood building chemicals in humans (pressumably in animals too).
If the use of this poison is so widespread is seems a plasauble cause of so many psychological disorders that are so prevalent nowadays ( depressions, OCD, autism etc)